Stephen, list:
'Mind' is not the same as consciousness. Therefore, to suggest, as
Peirce does, that Mind is functional within non-organic systems, does
not mean that these systems are conscious.
Complex adaptive systems are not grounded in a 'materialist'
ideology, but fit in well with the Mind processing that is Peircean
semiosis. The nature of a CAS is that it is self-organized, with
perimeters, with a network of relations with other systems, and,
working within an ongoing dynamic and adaptive informational
processing. That obviously refers to Mind - and not just mechanical
interactions - which are unable to adapt and are not self-organizing.
Edwina
On Sun 18/02/18 11:53 AM , "Stephen Jarosek" [email protected]
sent:
John, Edwina
Even though I am not a chemist, I chose my words very carefully! My
choice of the two words "silicon molecule" specifically precludes the
word "atom". What you are saying, with regards to how a silicon atom
combines with other atoms into molecules is fine.
And then there is the question of the role of silicon-based
molecules in forming into crystals... or glass (which strictly
speaking is a liquid)… or mica. Looked at in this way, I definitely
see your point. For example, silicon-based crystals forming in a lump
of granite. I just find talk of consciousness in rocks kinda cringey,
prone to category errors, and am inclined to keep my distance from it.
As for other complex systems, like weather patterns, tornadoes and
such... little evidence of holon behavior... a tornado is not a holon
(mind-body) making choices from its Umwelt, and so the Peircean
categories cannot apply. They can only apply to the individual
molecules that comprise the tornado.
If I read you correctly, I interpret what you’re saying in the
context of emergence theory (along the lines of complex adaptive
systems, mathematical order from material chaos). It's a materialist
position that I am no longer comfortable with. At issue for me, wrt
emergence theory, is the apparent absence of holonic (mind-body)
behavior, choice-making and Umwelts that can be expressed in a
semiotic narrative.
Regards
From: Edwina Taborsky [mailto:[email protected] [1]]
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2018 4:32 PM
To: Peirce-L; John F Sowa
Subject: Re: [PEIRCE-L] The concept of system is just a human
abstraction
John - exactly, I fully agree - and nicely said. AND in addition,
all these processes are semiosic and involve Mind.
Edwina
On Sun 18/02/18 10:24 AM , John F Sowa [email protected] [2] sent:
On 2/18/2018 7:40 AM, Stephen Jarosek wrote:
> As far as the silicon molecule is concerned, the stone has no
context
> that is relevant to it. The silicon molecule receives no cue from
the
> stone as to what its properties should be.
That is not true. A silicon atom behaves in very different ways in
different molecules. In minerals, it is in some molecule, such as
silicon dioxide. But SiO2 may combine in more complex molecules,
such as aluminum silicate. And those molecules are affected by the
crystals, glasses, and surface interactions that affect the rock as
a whole. Heat, pressure, tension, torsion, and chemical processes
are transmitted to, from, and through every molecule in the rock.
> The stone is not a system, but an agglomeration of disconnected
minerals.
No!!! The concept of a system is just an abstraction from artifacts
that humans design. For inorganic matter, even a single rock is a
complex system. Weather, volcanoes, earthquakes, stars, galaxies,
supernovas, black holes, and the Big Bang are far more complex.
For organic matter, the processes are even complex and organized
than
any human can conceive.
And there is a continuum: Some inorganic processes somehow evolved
into those organic processes. The inorganic processes that generate
the earth's weather are extremely complex. And the weather affects
and is affected by all the organic processes on earth. And the earth
is just one insignificant rocky planet in a run-of-the-mill galaxy
in one corner of an immensely complex cosmos.
John
Links:
------
[1] http://webmail.primus.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(
[2] http://webmail.primus.ca/javascript:top.opencompose(
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