Helmut, list,

Peirce's term "determination" as used in his semeiotics does not concern
any causal or generative interaction, certainly no push/pull sort of thing.
As the second quotation below puts it: "this determination is not
determination in any causal sense."

Here *determination* is considered in relation to the Object (all
quotations are from https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/peirce-semiotics/)

Just as with the sign, not every characteristic of the object is relevant
to signification: only certain features of an object enable a sign to
signify it. For Peirce, the relationship between the object of a sign and
the sign that represents it is one of determination: the object determines
the sign. Peirce's notion of determination is by no means clear and it is
open to interpretation, but for our purposes, it is perhaps best understood
as the *placing of constraints* or conditions on successful signification
by the object, rather than the object *causing* or *generating *the sign.
The idea is that the object imposes certain parameters that a sign must
fall within if it is to represent that object. However, only certain
characteristics of an object are relevant to this process of determination.


Here as regards the Interpretant:

[J]ust as with the sign/object relation, Peirce believes the
sign/interpretant relation to be one of determination: the sign determines
an interpretant. Further, this determination is not determination in any
causal sense, rather, the sign determines an interpretant by using certain
features of the way the sign signifies its object to generate and shape our
understanding.


But as noted in the first quotation above, "Peirce's notion of
determination is by no means clear and it is open to interpretation," and
so the discussions above by Albert Atkin are not, I'm fairly certain, meant
to be definitive (if that's even possible).

Best,

Gary







*Gary Richmond*
*Philosophy and Critical Thinking*
*Communication Studies*
*LaGuardia College of the City University of New York*
*718 482-5690*

On Wed, Apr 4, 2018 at 3:48 PM, Helmut Raulien <h.raul...@gmx.de> wrote:

> List,
> Trying to make myself a concept of "determination", I am thinking: Is it a
> part of a dyadic interaction? And, if the three sign parts S,O,I have
> dyadic interactions, I guess these are results of a projective reduction,
> which is possible (Jon Awbrey), in contrast to a compositional (real)
> reduction (irreducible triad).
> I try to imagine "determination as the "pull"-part of a "push-pull"-
> interaction. The sign pushes the object into existence: It denotes it,
> creates it as a subject´s aboutness. In return the object pulls, determines
> the sign.
> The sign is brought into existence (pushed) by the interpretant via the
> interpretant´s interpretational capacity. If this capacity would not exist,
> then there would be no sign. In return the sign "pulls" at the
> interpretant: It takes advantage of this capacity of its: It determines it.
> What about the interaction between interpretant and object? Maybe this is
> the part, in which the interpretant becomes a new sign?
> Best, Helmut
>
>  04. April 2018 um 21:06 Uhr
>  "Gary Richmond" <gary.richm...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> Jon S, list,
>
> A question for the sake of clarity.
>
> Preceding your list of the 10 orders of determination you wrote:
>
>
> JAS: "In summary, I now believe that the complete order of determination--
> *the **logical sequence of the semiotic Correlates and their Relations,
> not necessarily their temporal** sequence in a concrete instance of
> semiosis*--is as follows" (emphasis added).
>
>
> Then your list of these 10:
>
>    1. Mode of Being of the Dynamic Object (Od) - Abstractive, Concretive,
>    Collective.
>    2. Mode of Presentation of the Immediate Object (Oi) - Descriptive,
>    Designative, Copulative.
>    3. Mode of Apprehension or Presentation of the Sign (S) - Tone, Token,
>    Type.
>    4. Nature of Reference (Od-S) - Icon, Index, Symbol.
>    5. Purpose of the Final Interpretant (If) - Gratific, Actuous (to
>    produce action), Temperative (to produce self-control).
>    6. Mode of Being of the Dynamic Interpretant (Id) - Sympathetic
>    (feeling), Percussive (exertion), Usual (another Sign).
>    7. Mode of Presentation of the Immediate Interpretant (Ii) -
>    Hypothetic, Categorical, Relative.
>    8. Nature of Intended Influence (S-If) - Seme (rheme/term), Pheme
>    (dicisign/proposition), Delome (argument).
>    9. Manner of Appeal (S-Id) - Suggestive (presented), Imperative
>    (urged), Indicative (submitted).
>    10. Nature of Assurance (S-Od-If) - Abducent (instinct), Inducent
>    (experience), Deducent (form).
>
> Also, specifically regarding the determination of the three Interpretants
> you wrote:
> ​
>
>
>
> JAS: "Hence the order of determination of the three Interpretants is If,
> Id, Ii; and since Peirce explicitly indicated that Od, Oi, and S precede
> these (EP 2:481; 1908), only the arrangement of the Relation trichotomies
> remains to be established."
>
>
> Are you suggesting that there might perhaps be some sort of logical
> *involution* happening here (at numbers 5-7) in the sense of that term as
> employed in "The Logic of Mathematics" at CP 1.490 such that 7 involves 6
> which involves 5)? For the determination of the three Interpretants in your
> "complete order of determination of the semiotic Correlates and their
> Relations"  seems not only not to be temporal (in the sense that you
> noted in the first snippet above, tempered a bit by the phrase "not
> necessarily"); nor can I make much sense of these three from the standpoint
> of "determination." Why are they ordered as they are in this sequence?
>
> As you suggested that you yourself are, I too have become confused by what
> Peirce means by "determination," not only as regards the three
> Interpretants, but throughout the 10. Even what had once seemed clear
> enough and simple enough to me, viz., that the Od *determines* the Oi
> which in term *determines* the S which *determines* *some* I (I had
> thought firstly that this would likely be the Ii), makes we wonder if
> Peirce is using *determination* in the same sense throughout. It seems to
> me that he is not, but I would be hard pressed to explain, for example, how
> the determination of the Oi by the Od differs from that of the S by the Oi
> (of course we're concerned here in any event with  logical and not physical
> determination).
>
> Am I still somehow conflating facets of this abstract list of the order of
> determination with determination in some "concrete instance of semiosis"?
> Perhaps I am.
>
> But then, again, why *this* sequence of the 10? Your list at first blush
> makes sense to me, but for now creates more questions than answers in my
> mind.
>
> I also continue to find terminological problems in the list, especially if
> it is ever to become more generally useful. Which semeiotic or other
> scientific community is your list meant to address? Peirce's endless
> re-neologizing becomes for me a significant problem in his late semeiotic,
> although he no doubt does this to clarify (at least for himself) certain
> subtle distinctions, only some of which can I yet fully appreciate (he'll
> also in places offer a term x, "*or*" term y--I'd suggest that to the end
> he was constantly experimenting, never fully settling on a 'final' or
> 'best' terminology).
>
> Best,
>
> Gary
>
>
>
> *Gary Richmond*
> *Philosophy and Critical Thinking*
> *Communication Studies*
> *LaGuardia College of the City University of New York*
> *718 482-5690*
>
> On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 8:22 PM, Jon Alan Schmidt <jonalanschm...@gmail.com
> > wrote:
>>
>> List:
>>
>>
>> If the trichotomy for the S-If Relation came *before* the one for the
>> Immediate Interpretant, then a Seme could not be scribed with any Lines of
>> Identity, and only a Delome could be scribed with more than one.  However,
>> there are Semes with one Line of Identity and Phemes with multiple Lines of
>> Identity; therefore, the trichotomy for the S-If Relation must come
>> *after* the one for the Immediate Interpretant.  This is consistent with
>> Short's *a posteriori* assessment, which also--along with Peirce's 1904
>> letter to Lady Welby (CP 8.338)--established that the S-Id division comes
>> *after* the S-If division.
>>
>>
>>
>> Icon/Index/Symbol for the Od-S Relation was the first trichotomy that
>> Peirce identified.  The well-known 1903 classification indicates that it
>> comes *after* the division based on the Sign itself--initially according
>> to its Mode of Being, later its Mode of Apprehension or Presentation--and
>> *before* the division based on the S-If Relation.  Hence the only
>> unanswered question regarding where to situate it in the 1908 order of
>> determination is whether it comes before, after, or in the midst of the
>> three divisions based on the different Interpretants.
>>
>>
>>
>> Although a Graph-Instance on the Phemic Sheet *involves* Icons and
>> Indices, it is always fundamentally a Symbol--"a sign which is fit to serve
>> as such simply because it will be so interpreted" (EP 2:307; 1904).  This
>> means that the trichotomy for the Od-S Relation must come *before* the
>> one for the Immediate Interpretant, since all three of the latter's Modes
>> of Presentation are feasible.  If it also comes *before* the ones for
>> the other two Interpretants, then both of the following statements must be
>> true.
>>
>>
>>
>>    - An Icon can only be a Sign whose Final Interpretant's *purpose* is
>>    Gratific, and whose Dynamic Interpretant is a feeling (Sympathetic).
>>    - Only a Symbol can be a Sign whose Final Interpretant's *purpose* is
>>    to produce self-control (Temperative), and whose Dynamic Interpretant is
>>    another Sign (Usual).
>>
>>
>>
>> Once again, these seem fairly straightforward and plausible.  A pure
>> Icon signifies characters without denoting an Object, so it can only be
>> employed to produce a feeling, not an exertion or another Sign.  An
>> Index tends to have a *compulsive* effect, rather than fostering a
>> *self-controlled* semiotic response by the interpreting Quasi-mind.
>>
>>
>>
>> Finally, the triadic Od-S-If Relation is divided according to "the Nature
>> of the Assurance of the Utterance" as Instinct/Experience/Form (EP 2:490;
>> 1908).  These correspond to the three types of Submitted Arguments
>> (Indicative Delomes), as reflected in Peirce's earlier names of
>> Abducent/Inducent/Deducent (R 339:424[285r]; 1906); so this trichotomy must
>> come *after* the ones for both S-If and S-Id.
>>
>>
>>
>> In summary, I now believe that the complete order of determination--the
>> *logical* sequence of the semiotic Correlates and their Relations, not
>> necessarily their *temporal* sequence in a concrete instance of
>> semiosis--is as follows.
>>
>>
>>
>>    1. Mode of Being of the Dynamic Object (Od) - Abstractive,
>>    Concretive, Collective.
>>    2. Mode of Presentation of the Immediate Object (Oi) - Descriptive,
>>    Designative, Copulative.
>>    3. Mode of Apprehension or Presentation of the Sign (S) - Tone,
>>    Token, Type.
>>    4. Nature of Reference (Od-S) - Icon, Index, Symbol.
>>    5. Purpose of the Final Interpretant (If) - Gratific, Actuous (to
>>    produce action), Temperative (to produce self-control).
>>    6. Mode of Being of the Dynamic Interpretant (Id) - Sympathetic
>>    (feeling), Percussive (exertion), Usual (another Sign).
>>    7. Mode of Presentation of the Immediate Interpretant (Ii) -
>>    Hypothetic, Categorical, Relative.
>>    8. Nature of Intended Influence (S-If) - Seme (rheme/term), Pheme
>>    (dicisign/proposition), Delome (argument).
>>    9. Manner of Appeal (S-Id) - Suggestive (presented), Imperative
>>    (urged), Indicative (submitted).
>>    10. Nature of Assurance (S-Od-If) - Abducent (instinct), Inducent
>>    (experience), Deducent (form).
>>
>>
>>
>> As I have noted previously, each of the two *internal* Correlates (Oi
>> and Ii), as well as the Sign itself, is divided according to its
>> *phaneroscopic* nature; each of the two *external* Correlates (Od and
>> Id) is divided according to its *ontological* nature; and the one *final*
>> Correlate (If) is divided according to its *normative* nature.  Evidently
>> the boundaries between Peirce's three branches of philosophy are not so
>> sharp as to keep them *completely* separate, at least when it comes to
>> Sign classification.
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jon S.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 1, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Jon Alan Schmidt <
>> jonalanschm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> List:
>>>
>>>
>>> Although it might seem reasonable to think that the order of
>>> determination of the three Interpretants would be from possibility (Ii) to
>>> actuality (Id) to habit or tendency (If), Peirce explicitly stated
>>> otherwise when discussing the feasible combinations of the divisions for
>>> the Immediate Object and the Sign itself.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> CSP:  In general, it is of the essence of a Real Tendency that no
>>> Actual Occurrence can of itself determine it in any way … But an Actual
>>> Occurrence always determines the Possibility of its character … It is, if
>>> possible, still more obvious that Possibility can never determine Actuality
>>> … (EP 2:480; 1908)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The same principle that guides Sign classification when moving from one
>>> trichotomy to the next applies here--the actual *cannot* determine the
>>> habitual, and the possible *cannot* determine the actual.  Hence the
>>> sequence of Interpretants should be reversed (If, Id, Ii); and if this is
>>> correct, then both of the following statements must be true in accordance
>>> with Peirce's 1908 taxonomy.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    - A Sign whose Final Interpretant's *purpose* is Gratific can only
>>>    determine a feeling as its Dynamic Interpretant (Sympathetic).
>>>    - Only a Sign whose Final Interpretant's *purpose* is to produce
>>>    self-control (Temperative) can determine another Sign as its Dynamic
>>>    Interpretant (Usual).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> These seem fairly straightforward and plausible; essentially, the kind
>>> of effect that the Sign is *destined* to produce (If) governs which
>>> kinds of *actual* effects its Replicas can have on interpreting
>>> Quasi-minds (Id), just like a law of nature as a Real general--an
>>> *inveterate* habit--governs the behavior of existing Things.  All Signs
>>> have a Dynamic Interpretant that includes feeling, but only some also
>>> "evoke some kind of effort," whether mental or physical; and only some of
>>> those produce another Sign-Replica (EP 2:409 and cf. CP 5.475-476; both
>>> 1907).  Furthermore, both of the following statements must also be true.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    - A Sign that determines a feeling as its Dynamic Interpretant
>>>    (Sympathetic) can only *present* its Immediate Interpretant as
>>>    Hypothetic.
>>>    - Only a Sign that determines another Sign as its Dynamic
>>>    Interpretant (Usual) can *present* its Immediate Interpretant as
>>>    Relative.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Evaluation in this case hinges on clarifying Peirce's 1908 division
>>> according to the Immediate Interpretant into 
>>> Hypothetic/Categorical/Relative,
>>> which he offered "with great hesitation" (CP 8.369, EP 2:489), although it
>>> appeared in his Logic Notebook as early as 1906 (R 339:423-424[284r-285r]).
>>> He presumably derived the terms themselves from three types of
>>> *propositions* (CP 2.271; 1903).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    - Hypothetical - "any proposition compounded of propositions" such
>>>    that it is "either conditional, copulative, or disjunctive."
>>>    - Categorical - any proposition "not concerned with the identity of
>>>    more than one individual."
>>>    - Relative - any proposition "concerned with the identity of more
>>>    than one individual."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For hypothetical propositions, it seems likely that Peirce primarily had
>>> conditionals in mind because of their modal nature.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> CSP:  The quantified subject of a hypothetical proposition is a
>>> *possibility*, or *possible case*, or *possible state of things*. In
>>> its primitive sense, that which is *possible *is a hypothesis which in
>>> a given state of information is not known, and cannot certainly be
>>> inferred, to be false. (CP 2.347; c. 1895)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Categorical propositions are routinely employed in first-order predicate
>>> logic.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> CSP:  A categorical proposition is one whose immediate parts are terms
>>> … The subject of a categorical proposition is that concerning which
>>> something is said, the predicate is that which is said of it … Categorical
>>> propositions are said to be divided according to their *Quantity*, into
>>> the universal, the particular, the indefinite, and the singular. (CP
>>> 4.40-42; 1893)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Peirce considered hypothetical propositions to be logically equivalent
>>> to categorical propositions--e.g., "if A then B" in propositional calculus
>>> corresponds to "all A is B" in predicate calculus--and relative
>>> propositions are basically just complex categorical propositions.  However,
>>> the three types are readily distinguishable in the Existential Graphs by
>>> the number of Lines of Identity that they require--none for a hypothetical
>>> proposition, exactly one for a categorical proposition, and more than one
>>> for a relative proposition (R 481:10; no date).  This seems like an
>>> important clue, since Peirce described the Phemic Sheet as follows (CP
>>> 4.550-553; 1906).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    - "… the Quasi-mind of all the Signs represented on the Diagram."
>>>    - The means by which "two parties [Graphist and Interpreter]
>>>    collaborate in composing a Pheme, and in operating upon this so as to
>>>    develop a Delome."
>>>    - "… the Quasi-mind in which the Graphist and Interpreter are at one
>>>    …"
>>>    - "… a Pheme of all that is tacitly taken for granted between the
>>>    Graphist and Interpreter, from the outset of their discussion …"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In other words, the Phemic Sheet represents the Commens, which is
>>> precisely what the Communicational Interpretant determines (EP 2:478; 1906).
>>> When a Sign-Replica is scribed as a Graph-Instance on it (cf. CP 4.536;
>>> 1906), the Immediate Interpretant is presented as Hypothetic if there are
>>> no Lines of Identity, as Categorical if there is just one, and as Relative
>>> if there are two or more.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The Phemic Sheet is strictly a *logical* Quasi-mind; it can only be
>>> determined to another Sign as the Dynamic Interpretant of a previous Sign
>>> (Usual).  Since all three Modes of Presentation of the Immediate
>>> Interpretant are still feasible, that trichotomy must indeed come
>>> *after* the one for the Mode of Being of the Dynamic Interpretant.
>>> ​​
>>> Hence the order of determination of the three Interpretants is If, Id,
>>> Ii; and since Peirce explicitly indicated that Od, Oi, and S precede these
>>> (EP 2:481; 1908), only the arrangement of the Relation trichotomies remains
>>> to be established.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Jon S.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 31, 2018 at 2:21 PM, Jon Alan Schmidt <
>>> jonalanschm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> List:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am taking a (probably brief) break here from my ongoing *metaphysical
>>>> *musings to tackle an unsettled aspect of Peirce's *semeiotic*;
>>>> specifically, his speculative grammar  In a 1908 letter to Victoria
>>>> Lady Welby, he spelled out the rule that governs which Sign classifications
>>>> are viable in accordance with the "order of determination," the logical
>>>> sequence of divisions; but he then proceeded to specify it only for the six
>>>> Correlates, not for their four Relations.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> CSP:  It is evident that a Possible can determine nothing but a
>>>> Possible; it is equally so that a Necessitant can be determined by nothing
>>>> but a Necessitant. Hence it follows from the Definition of a Sign that
>>>> since the Dynamoid Object determines the Immediate Object, which determines
>>>> the Sign itself, which determines the Destinate Interpretant, which
>>>> determines the Effective  Interpretant, which determines the Explicit
>>>> Interpretant, the six trichotomies, instead of determining 729 classes of
>>>> signs, as they would if they were independent, only yield 28 classes; and
>>>> if, as I strongly opine (not to say almost prove) there are four other
>>>> trichotomies of signs of the same order of importance, instead of making
>>>> 59,049 classes, these will only come to 66. (EP 2:481)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, once again, Peirce did not use his most common terms for
>>>> the three Interpretants--Immediate, Dynamic, and Final.  However, once
>>>> again, Effective almost certainly corresponds to the Dynamic Interpretant
>>>> as the feeling, exertion, or further Sign to which the Sign *actually*
>>>> determines an interpreting Quasi-mind.  In this case, the secondary
>>>> literature reflects varying opinions regarding the other two
>>>> Interpretants--do Destinate and Explicit correspond to Immediate and Final,
>>>> respectively, or the other way around?  I have been advocating the
>>>> first option for some time now, mainly because it accords with the
>>>> following definitions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    - Immediate Interpretant (Ii) - the range of *possible*
>>>>    feelings/actions/thoughts that the Sign *may* produce.
>>>>    - Dynamic Interpretant (Id) - any *actual* feeling/action/thought
>>>>    that the Sign *does* produce.
>>>>    - Final Interpretant (If) - the *habit* of feeling/action/thought
>>>>    that the Sign *would* produce.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In Peirce's semiotic terminology, determination is not strictly
>>>> synonymous with causation, as the notion of *determinism* would imply.
>>>> Instead, its meaning is more along the lines of constraint,
>>>> delimitation, or simply making something *more determinate*.  The
>>>> actual is a subset of the possible, and the habitual only comes about by
>>>> reiteration--either of the possible in the Inner World, or of the actual in
>>>> the Outer World (CP 5.487, EP 2:413; 1907).  Hence if these
>>>> definitions and sequence are correct, it seems that the order of
>>>> determination conveniently matches their *temporal* succession in any
>>>> concrete instance of semiosis (Ii, Id, If).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As for the Relation trichotomies, both a 1904 letter from Peirce to
>>>> Lady Welby (CP 8.338) and a careful *a posteriori* assessment by T. L.
>>>> Short in his 2007 book, *Peirce's Theory of Signs* (pp. 248-256),
>>>> indicate that the division into Presented/Urged/Submitted (later
>>>> Suggestive/Imperative/Indicative) comes *after* the division into
>>>> Rheme/Dicisign/Argument (later Seme/Pheme/Delome).  However, Peirce
>>>> unwaveringly associated the latter with the Sign's Relation to its Final
>>>> Interpretant (S-If), which entails that S-If determines S-Id.  In the
>>>> past, I have proposed switching these assignments, since it seems more
>>>> consistent to arrange the Relation trichotomies in the same sequence as
>>>> their corresponding Correlate trichotomies; but as I have always
>>>> acknowledged, this would be a clear deviation from Peirce.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Could it be that instead the Final Interpretant determines the Dynamic
>>>> Interpretant, which determines the Immediate Interpretant?  This would
>>>> entail that the Destinate and Explicit Interpretants are the Final and
>>>> Immediate Interpretants, respectively.  After all, the terminology
>>>> itself suggests such a correspondence--the Immediate Interpretant is
>>>> "explicit" in the sense of being "revealed in the right understanding of
>>>> the Sign itself" (CP 4.536; 1906), because it is "represented or signified
>>>> in the Sign" (CP 8.434, EP 2:482; 1908); and Peirce often associated that
>>>> which is "destined" with that which is "final," even doing so specifically
>>>> with respect to habits of conduct and the ideal outcome of inquiry as the
>>>> "final opinion."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> CSP:  Now, just as conduct controlled by ethical reason tends toward
>>>> fixing certain habits of conduct, the nature of which … does not depend
>>>> upon any accidental circumstances, and in that sense, may be said to be
>>>> *destined*; so, thought, controlled by a rational experimental logic,
>>>> tends to the fixation of certain opinions, equally destined, the nature of
>>>> which will be the same in the end … (CP 5.430, EP 2:342; 1905)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> CSP:  I hold that truth's independence of individual opinions is due
>>>> (so far as there is any "truth") to its being the predestined result to
>>>> which sufficient inquiry *would* ultimately lead. (CP 5.494, EP 2:419;
>>>> 1907)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The next step will be to explore some implications of this alternative.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA
>>>> Professional Engineer, Amateur Philosopher, Lutheran Layman
>>>> www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt - twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt
>>>>
>>>
>>
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