Re: M-I: Re: Ecology and the American Indians

[Rosser Jr, John Barkley]

Ricardo,
     Gosh, far be it from me to defend Uncle Louie Proyect, 
but...
     The sources you cite certainly make these quite 
reasonable arguments.  Smith, among others, makes the 
argument about the Pleistocene extinctions.  But I would 
prefer to take the safer position of saying that we really 
don't know for sure.  For example with regard to the 
Pleistocene hunting question the new evidence about earlier 
arrrivals by Amerinds (to get anthropological) in North 
America upends the old argument that it was their arrival 
on the pristine continent that triggered the hunting binge. 
Ice age climate conditions certainly were a factor, if not 
the whole story.  I like Jim Devine's argument that there 
was probably a later adjustment after some initial 
disequilibrium.  
     As regards the Mayan collapse, a combination of class 
exploitation and resource overexploitation looks reasonable 
to me, finding the coincidence of those two not unlikely.  
But, again, we don't know for sure.  That's just my 
opinion, although there are scholars out there who agree 
with it.
Barkley Rosser
On Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:05:10 -0400 Ricardo Duchesne 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > Date sent:      Tue, 27 Jan 1998 17:33:12 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
> > Send reply to:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > From:           "Rosser Jr, John Barkley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To:             [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Copies to:      [EMAIL PROTECTED], 
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject:        Re: M-I: Re: Ecology and the American Indians
> 
> Barkley:
> 
> > 3)  I agree that it is uncertain what caused the Mayan 
> > collapse in about the tenth century.  The main competing 
> > hyptheses are resource overexploitation and class struggle. 
> > That is why I mentioned both in my post, although it may 
> > have been both or neither.  We don't know.  But the claim 
> > that it was definitely not resource overexploitation is not 
> > sustainable.  I don't think that Harry Cleaver's very 
> > reasonable account of the awful things being done to the 
> > descendents of the Mayans today in Chiapas has much 
> > relevance with respect to explaining why their 
> > economy-civilization collapsed 1000 years ago before any 
> > Europeans or capitalists (other than themselves possibly) 
> > were around.
> 
> 
> An excellent source on the Mayan collapse is Culbert, T.P. If I 
> recall, he argues, it was environmental-overexploitation. My view is 
> the Mayan collapse should not be seen as a unique historical event, 
> since collapse has been a general happening among all pre-capitalist 
> civilizations. If a complex society expands via conquest, at 
> some point its expansionary limits will be reached, and decline will 
> be irreversible. 
> 
> 
> Barkley:
> 
> > 4)  I agree that there is no definite answer about the 
> > reason for the Pleistocene extinctions.  My original 
> > source, since you asked, is Vernon L Smith, "The Primitive 
> > Hunter Culture, the Pleistocene Extinction, and the Rise of 
> > Agriculture," 1975, _Journal of Political Economy_, 83, 
> > 727-756.  But, basically we don't know.  By and large I 
> > would prefer to avoid a "citation slinging" exercise in 
> > this discussion, although I am perfectly willing to do it 
> > if you insist.
> 
> The reason for the Pleistocene extinctions was human hunting. Big game 
> animals were hunted to extinction by GROWING bands of hunters and 
> gatherers. Population pressure  is indicated by such facts as
> bands being  forced to travel over longer distances for food, to 
> change from consuming large animals to smaller ones, to practice food 
> storage, etc. Eventually they were forced to adopt agriculture.
> 
> 
> > 5)  I am much more in sympathy with your mystical views 
> > about the views of Mative American Indians towards nature 
> > than some people on these lists, and that current societies 
> > may have much to learn from them.  All I objected to was 
> > the claim that all Indians had these views.  I don't think 
> > that making this point in any way justifies the terrible 
> > things done to the Indians by the Europeans, even if those 
> > who wish to justify such things certainly make reference to 
> > the nastier things that some Indian tribes indisputably did.
> > Barkley Rosser
> 
> The question Proyect needs to answer is what ethical criteria he uses 
> to claim what the Europeans did was "terrible".
> 
> ricardo
> 
> 
> > On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:49:01 -0500 Louis Proyect 
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > > >     One famous counerexample to the view that Indians were 
> > > >always "in harmony with nature" is the high probability 
> > > >that the extinction of the sabre-tooth tiger and several 
> > > >other large mammals in North America probably resulted from 
> > > >overhunting arising from the initial invasion of the 
> > > >continent by the human species, the first Native American 
> > > >Indians to be precise.  This does not say that many tribes 
> > > >later adopted highly ecologically sound approaches.
> > > >Barkley Rosser
> > > 
> > > I am not saying that Barkely is a racist, but this argument is part of the
> > > ideological repertory of those who try to apologize for the genocide of the
> > > Indian. It goes along with references to Incan human sacrifice, and other
> > > items that get passed from one right-wing scholar to another. Simon Schama
> > > is a master of this kind of bullshit.
> > > 
> > > We have no knowledge of the exact circumstances surrounding the extinction
> > > of the saber-tooth tiger and other large animals during the late ice age.
> > > Despite all the data on the subject, there is no convincing evidence that
> > > Indians were the chief or even the major contributing factor in the demise
> > > of such animals. Climate and dozens of other factors could have been just
> > > as significant. These questions are dealt with in the scholarly
> > > "Pleistocene Extinctions: The Search for A Cause", edited by Paul Martin
> > > and H.E. Wright Jr. (Yale Univ., 1967). Where does Barkely get his
> > > information from? The National Geographic?
> > > 
> > > Louis Proyect
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >      --- from list [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---
> > 
> > -- 
> > Rosser Jr, John Barkley
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 
> > 
> > 

-- 
Rosser Jr, John Barkley
[EMAIL PROTECTED]