I whole heartedly endorse Barkley's message below. Cheers, ajit sinha >I don't have Nathan's email address, but I > would urge Michael P. to express to Nathan that > at least some of us regret his departure, despite > our disagreements. Heck, if all the pro-bombing > people leave the list, I'll have to make their arguments > for them, even though I oppose the bombing, ugh! > This is a very serious and difficult issue and > it is understandable that people are getting worked up > about it. There are strong arguments on each side, as > the labels "pro-imperialist" and "pro-genocide" suggest. > I would not like to see this list become a love-in fest for > the anti-bomb crowd, even though there are some who > might prefer that for the purposes of spending our time > in figuring out "how to oppose imperialism." > BTW, even though I am sometimes viewed as some > kind of "voice of reason" (except when I'm not, :-)) I just > lost it in my Principles of Economics classes today and > ended up screaming at the top of my lungs and nearly > breaking lecterns while denouncing the bombing. This > thing is now out of control and has become totally > unpredictable and very dangerous (or maybe that description > just applies to me, :-)). The big joke is that in one section I > got applauded by a rightwing Republican. Oh well... > In any case, I would hope that Nathan returns and that > we all try to be somewhat more reasonable with each other > as we attempt to explore the evolving issues and situation > that confronts us all, whatever our views are. > Barkley Rosser > -----Original Message----- > From: Bohmer, Pete <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Monday, April 19, 1999 8:03 PM > Subject: [PEN-L:5559] RE: Re: How the Left repeats simplistic > analogies (How > the Serbs became fascists > > > >I just sent Nathan Newman a note telling him that while I am > totally > against > >the U.S./NATO war against Yugoslavia, the self-righteousness of > some of the > >people on this list who are against the War and their ad-hominem > attacks > >also bothers me, e.g., a few of the many posts of Proyect and > Henwood fall > >into this category. Because of the difficulty of anti-war > people in > putting > >forth a position that protects the rights of the Albanian > Kosovans, I can > >understand (although not agree with) why some progressive people > do not > have > >a clear position against the U.S. war. > > > >I have done a fair amount of leafleting and speaking against the > war since > >March 24th and find myself continually being confronted by > honest people > >with points of view and arguments similar to what Max Sawicky > and Nathan > >Newman have been raising. > > > >I urge members on this list to challenge as strongly as they can > the > >arguments of members of Pen-l who support the War but to respect > the > >individual and to not attack their motives. > > > >Peter Bohmer > >> ---------- > >> Reply To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> Sent: Monday, April 19, 1999 2:23 PM > >> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> Subject: [PEN-L:5542] Re: How the Left repeats simplistic > analogies > >> (How the Serbs became fascists > >> > >> I wrote: >>It's interesting (and sad) that the DSA seems to be > reverting > >> to > >> its roots [i.e., of cold-war liberalism], or more correctly, > to some its > >> worst traditions. When will they ever learn?<< > >> > >> >My lord, the intellectual intolerance building on this issue > by the > >> "pro-Serbian genocide" forces (as opposed to us "cruise > missile > liberals") > >> is getting quite incredible. You folks seem to refuse to deal > with the > >> fact that there are a large chunk of folks who have marched in > anti-war > >> marches for decades (or only for their short adult lifetimes) > but who > just > >> see the alternatives in this situation differently.< > >> > >> Look, I am NOT (repeat: NOT) "pro-Serbian genocide" at all; > I've repeated > >> that so many times you'd think you'd get it. You labelled > yourself a > >> "cruise missile liberal" or something like that and it seems > to fit. > Since > >> you never have replied to my arguments against your arguments > in favor of > >> "cruising" the Serbs, I assume you have no reasonable reply > except > >> emotional cant about "'we' had to do _something_ about > Kosovo/a" (as in > >> the > >> YDSA position paper). Instead, you respond in an ad hominem > style with > >> accusations of "intellectual intolerance." > >> > >> I am not responsible for what Milosevic or the Serbian > government or the > >> Serbs as a whole do, since I don't pay taxes to them and they > don't act > in > >> my name. On the other hand, the US government takes my taxes > and blows > >> people away again and again. And as I've argued again and > again -- and > >> you've ignored and ignored -- the US/NATO is not making things > better in > >> Serbia, Kosova/o, Montenegro, Macedonia, or Albania. They are > f*cking > >> things up much more. It doesn't make sense tactically, > strategically, > >> politically, or morally. > >> > >> As for the "large chunk of folks who have marched in anti-war > marches for > >> decades" before deciding that imperialism was great, it's > important to > >> remember that the folks who turned the old SP-USA into a > pro-war force in > >> the late 1960s and early 1970s _also_ had their credentials as > activists. > >> And also that just because someone has credentials doesn't > automatically > >> mean that they're right (or that people without credentials > are > >> automatically wrong). In my book, they have to present > reasoned arguments > >> rather than resting on their laurels. (This biz reminds me of > those > people > >> who act superior because _they_ were at Woodstock.) > >> > >> >You don't have to agree with those who support intervention > but this > >> wholesale excommunication of everyone who disagrees with you > from the > Left > >> is sectarian in the worst sense of the word.< > >> > >> There have been no excommunications while I've been > participating in this > >> debate on pen-l. I presented reasoned responses to your "NATO > is the best > >> we've got" argument and you didn't reply. Period. > >> > >> >I am starting to find pen-l as intellectually narrow as > freerepublic.com > >> (with pretty damn similar rhetoric) in the complete refusal to > >> respectfully > >> engage with those you disagree with.< > >> > >> So _you_ are excommunicating us. Further, I _engaged_ with you > and you > >> _ignored_ it. > >> > >> >To just dismiss this division on the Left as a reversion to > Cold War > >> liberalism is just intellectually simplistic. It may be the > old folks > >> living the last war (Vietnam in this case), who are > resurrecting the > worst > >> sectarian traditions of division and intolerance of > yesteryear.< > >> > >> Having caught only the last, cynical, tail of the anti-war > movement I > >> can't > >> say that I am nostalgic for those days. Never having been a > sectarian > (and > >> having actually belonged to the SP-USA, DSOC, and the New > American > >> Movement), I don't know who you are talking to here. (Maybe to > Louis, but > >> I'm not Louis. If anyone, it's Max who looks like Louis.) > >> > >> I am, on the other hand, old (47). Maybe it leads to > flatulence (to quote > >> one of your insults) but it also gives me a sense of history. > I know that > >> when the YDSA embraces cruise missiles they are repeating > mistakes > similar > >> to those made in the past. I know that those who don't learn > from history > >> are bound to repeat its mistakes. > >> > >> Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] & > >> http://clawww.lmu.edu/Faculty/JDevine/jdevine.html > >> > > > > >
