Agreed. That's why it's called political-economy. ;D Cheers, Mike B) --- "Devine, James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > [was RE: [PEN-L] cooper on the Gray demise of the > Lib-Dems] > > Note that one of the things that right-wingers (such > as Bush, Schwartzenegger) like to do is to appear > environmentalist by promising hydrogen power in the > future while not doing anything substantive to > promote hydrogen. Hydrogen is one of these fuels > where mere research isn't enough. You need to have > an infrastructure of pipes, refineries, tanks, and > fueling stations -- or else the vehicles are pretty > useless. Without the vehicles being successful and > in demand, no private business will invest in the > infrastructure. There's a vicious circle, so that a > big public investment is needed. But the > right-wingers want to only invest in research (if > that). > > ------------------------ > Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] & > http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mike Ballard > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 2:15 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: [PEN-L] cooper on the Gray demise of > the Lib-Dems > > > > > > Hydrogen is useful because it is not a carbon > based > > fuel. Global warming and other problems associated > > with air/water/Earth pollution can be dealt with > in > > real substatial ways, if humans get wise and > organise > > ways to use fuels which don't involve burning > carbon > > based fuels for energy. I doubt that this can be > done > > under capitalism before it is too late i.e. we've > > drunk far too much of the carbon based kool-aide > our > > fearless leaders are selling us now. > > > > Generating hydrogen from nuclear fission plants is > a > > stupid idea because of the old problems associated > > with radioactive waste. One might expect this > from > > capitalist politicians. > > > > As Shane has indicated, there are other, safer > ways to > > obtain hydrogen. It is not useful for us to > continue > > to poison the Earth. But production for use and > need > > is not what 'the economy' is all about under the > > dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. Capitalists who > own > > shares in the carbon based fuel industry will > always > > try to convince you that converting to non carbon > > based fuels is utopian. It's the same argument > they > > use against socialism i.e. TINA. > > > > Regards, > > Mike B) > > > > > > > > > > --- Eugene Coyle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Peter Camejo put forward a number of progessive > > > proposals, more > > > important by far than anything put forward by > anyone > > > else. > > > > > > I am repeatedly surprised by the fascination > > > many environmentalists > > > have with the wonderful future world of > hydrogen. > > > Let's see, we build > > > power plants to generate electricity to extract > > > hydrogren, then ship, by > > > pipe or other means the hydrogen to someplace > else > > > to make electricity? > > > And so we end up with less energy than we > started > > > with. Why is this good? > > > > > > Gene Coyle > > > > > > Shane Mage wrote: > > > > > > > I wouldn't take issue with the contempt > displayed > > > for the > > > > California electorate, the "Lib-Dems," and > > > Schwarzenegger > > > > personally. But. The one important > progressive > > > proposal > > > > to emerge from the entire recall circus came > > > from... > > > > Schwarzenegger! He promised a program to > provide > > > > hydrogen refueling facilities *every twenty > miles* > > > along > > > > California's major highways by 2010. How > > > important this > > > > idea is was recognized by the NYTIMES > editorially > > > with > > > > the adjectives "unrealistic" and "utopian." > > > > > > > > Of course, this may turn out to be campaign > > > verbiage. But > > > > I did have an experience that reflects > favorably > > > on > > > > Schwarzenegger. In May 2001 I served on the > jury > > > in > > > > a lengthy damage trial against GM for the > death of > > > a > > > > husband in an SUV rollover. He was gruesomely > > > crushed > > > > when the roof collapsed on his head. GM > claimed > > > that > > > > its design was not defective because > reinforcing > > > the > > > > supporting columns would do nothing for > safety. > > > We > > > > found against GM. On the next day I read in > the > > > > Financial Times an article reporting that > before > > > > Schwarzenegger agreed to buy a Hummer he had > > > > insisted that GM include exactly the > reinforcement > > > > that had been at issue in our trial! > > > > > > > > Shane Mage > > > > > > > > "Thunderbolt steers all > > > > things." > > > > > > > > Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi Pensters, > > > >> > > > >> My view from down here and from having known > > > people in > > > >> the rank & file voting public of California > is > > > that > > > >> they voted for Arnie because he promised them > > > simple, > > > >> honest good governance and a 'strong' > government. > > > The > > > >> government under Davis was seen as weak, > which is > > > why > > > >> so many people got screwed (the thinking > goes) > > > during > > > >> the 'energy crisis" (fix). > > > >> > > > >> The problem with the voting public is that > > > they're, > > > >> for the most part, a bunch of ignorant fools > who, > > > like > > > >> the kool-aide drinkers of Jonestown, are > looking > > > for > > > >> an honest guy to lead them to the simple life > > > away > > > >> from the slimy, weak polytricksters, like > Davis. > > > >> > > > >> The ground for this kind of debacle is > fertilized > > > on a > > > >> daily basis by mealy-mouthed liberals who > won't > > > stand > > > >> up for what they believe--mostly because the > DP > > > is in > > > >> the hands of a gang of bureaucrats beholden > to > > > various > > > >> sections of the ruling class. These > politicians > > > are > > > >> satisfied with playing the role of safety > valve > > > during > > > >> the toboggan ride to the bottom which Capital > and > > > the > > > >> Repugs are bound and determined to take the > rest > > > of > > > >> us. They don't tell their constituencies > that > > > they're > > > >> being ripped off royally. They tell them > that > > > >> businessmen and the 'free-market' can save > the > > > day, if > > > >> the voters just choose to go with them on > their > > > nice > > > >> toboggan ride with cushions, instead of on > the > > > 'mean > > > >> old' Repugs' sled. > > > >> > > > >> A lot of people see through this > > > 'propaganda'--it's > > > >> all phoney--remember what Bobby D told you? > But, > > > >> because the major pollies in the DP, which is > the > > > only > > > >> voice given credibility as an opposition by > the > > > >> corporate and State owned media > ("Camejo...who's > > > he?" > > > >> Joe Shit the ragman asks as he quaffs his Bud > and > > > >> reads the sports section at the short bar) > don't > > > even > > > >> begin to educate their constituency (because > > > they're > > > >> already bought and paid for as safety valves) > the > > > >> voters who vote in quantity choose Arnie > because > > > Arnie > > > >> is better looking and he's like 'cool' baby. > > > >> > > > >> Best to all, > > > >> Mike B) > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> --- "Devine, James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> obviously, Cooper doesn't like Camejo, for > > > whatever > > > >>> reason. I thought, however, that one of > MC's > > > points > > > >>> was that the progressive wing and > > > ethnic-minority > > > >>> grassroots of the DP (which are not the > object > > > of > > > >>> MC's derision here) sat out because Gray > Davis > > > was > > > >>> so bad. And most of them -- and MC, I'd > guess > > > -- are > > > >>> wedded to the lesser of two weevils logic > which > > > says > > > >>> if you're not voting for Ah-nold or > Bustamente, > > > you > > > >>> might as well vote for Gary Coleman or Mary > > > Carey or > > > >>> Larry Flynt. > > > >>> > > > >>> Davis' explanation -- right white nativist > > > >>> anti-immigrant uprising fueled by talk > shows > > > -- is > > > >>> true, but only part of the story. It's not > only > > > who > > > >>> voted for der Gropenfuehrer but also who > didn't > > > vote > > > >> > > > >> > for Davis, or Bustamente. There were also > a > > > lot of > > > >> > > > >>> people who voted for Mr. Universe for > reasons > > > >>> besides those highlighted by Davis. > > > >>> > > > >>> btw, MC's article is from the curent L.A. > > > WEEKLY. > > > >>> Jim > > > >>> > > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > > >>> From: Doug Henwood > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >>> Sent: Sun 10/12/2003 2:48 PM > > > >>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >>> Cc: > > > >>> Subject: Re: [PEN-L] cooper on the > Gray > > > demise of > > > >>> the Lib-Dems > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> As Eudora told me, the word "Camejo" > was > > > not found > > > >>> in this piece. > > > >>> Why, if this was a not-unadmirable > > > uprising, as > > > >>> Marc Cooper argues, > > > >>> was there not more support for him > (or > > > Huffington)? > > > >>> Mike Davis' > > > >>> explanation - that it was a right > white > > > nativist > > > >>> anti-immigrant > > > >>> uprising fueled by talk shows - > seems > > > more > > > >>> compelling, given the > > > >>> demographics of the vote. Arnie's > vote > > > was highest > > > >>> in the above-$75k > > > >>> households. > > > >>> > > > >>> Doug > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ===== > > > >> > > > > > > ***************************************************************** > > > >> "A man's maturity consists in finding once > again > > > the seriousness he had > > > >> as a child at play." > > > >> > > > >> Heraclitus, Greek philosopher (500 B.C.) > > > >> > > > >> http://profiles.yahoo.com/swillsqueal > > > >> > > > >> __________________________________ > > > >> Do you Yahoo!? > > > >> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved > product > > > search > > > >> http://shopping.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > ***************************************************************** > > "A man's maturity consists in finding once again > the > > seriousness he had > > as a child at play." > > > > Heraclitus, Greek philosopher (500 B.C.) > > > > http://profiles.yahoo.com/swillsqueal > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product > search > > http://shopping.yahoo.com > >
===== ***************************************************************** "A man's maturity consists in finding once again the seriousness he had as a child at play." Heraclitus, Greek philosopher (500 B.C.) http://profiles.yahoo.com/swillsqueal __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com
