I want to add a point: I don't claim to _know_ the truth about the
nature of human health. However, I have _working hypotheses_ about the
nature of human health. My metaphorical use of the word "unhealthy"
was in comparison to my hypothesis about health, not relative to some
known truth. That is, I think that being self-defeating can reasonably
be called "unhealthy."
On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 3:20 PM, Jim Devine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> me:
>>> By "unhealthy," I simply
>>> was referring to unrealistic wishful thinking. Do you think that is a
>>> healthy thing?
>
> Doyle:
>> I am referring to a common response in disability rights about 'health', in
>> which medicalizing issues stands in for some more realistic analysis of
>> social relationships.
>
> Please don't put words in my mouth. I was simply using a metaphor
> ("unhealthy" to refer to self-defeating). I was not talking about
> either medicine nor disability. These may be your constant concerns,
> but they are not mine.
>
> My views are not "common," so it's a mistake to use "common responses"
> in reference to what I say. Instead of treating me as simply a
> representative of a larger "common" herd, it's best to treat me as an
> individual. (In general, that's a good idea: it's a mistake to treat
> an individual worker as merely a representative of the abstract
> proletariat, an individual woman as merely a representative of her
> sex, etc.)
>
> Even if my statements are normally infested with what you see as
> "common" misconceptions, it's a mistake to treat _all_ of them that
> way. It's best to give other people a break now and then, trying to
> take people at their own words rather than imposing your categories on
> them. It's best to avoid the PC crap of being obsessed with the use of
> "incorrect" words. It's not words that matter as much as actions.
>
>> Unrealism is not health based. Error is not health
>> based....
>
> As noted above, I never said they were. But unrealism and error _can_
> be health-based. As far as I can tell, most or even all people with
> schizophrenia also have unrealistic visions of reality. (If their
> vision is realistic, that's another matter. But they often seem to
> have a hard time functioning in even mundane situations, suggesting
> unrealism on their part.)
>
> Of course, as you suggest, ideology can have the same effect among the
> so-called healthy people. Since "disease" can be more than physical or
> mental, in fact, we might think of ideology as a social disease. If
> so, error and unrealism are health-based, i.e., based in an unhealthy
> society. So my use of the health metaphor wasn't that bad.
>
>> The problem with health is that it is an unknowable normality. We can more
>> easily find economic truth than health truth.
>
> The orthodox approach is to take the structure of society as given, so
> that "health" refers to maximal adaption to existing society. Of
> course, most leftoids see our society itself as "sick," and I agree,
> so that's totally inadequate. The usual alternative is to define
> "health" in terms of the attainment of human potential, given social
> institutions that do not block human development but instead encourage
> it.
>
> Obviously, we cannot _know_ the "health truth" (sic) given the
> sickness of current society, but we can at least see some glimmerings
> of health even in the here and now, so we can get a _good guess_ about
> the direction of healthy human development. This in turn gives us some
> idea about the nature of human health. It's unknown, but not
> _unknowable_.
>
> Of course, the true nature of human healthy development and health can
> be known only in practice, by trying to transform the existing social
> institutions. But without at least some prior notion of what's meant
> by "health" to be tested in practice, we're battling in the dark.
>
> (If there are no "glimmerings of health even in the here and now,"
> BTW, we might as well give up. Society is so sick that it's corrupted
> us all totally so we can never change it for the better.)
> --
> Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
> way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
>
--
Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
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