US production has also increased rapidly, if your time-scale is from
1945 to the present. In addition, just because the connection between
"social" appropriation and the working class getting a big cut can be
explained by other things: the growing scarcities of labor-power bid
wages up. Scarcities of commodities occurred because working people
were spending so much time waiting in line for scarce goods and so
little time actually working. (Labor productivity didn't grow very
quickly at all.) In an effort to increase the supply of commodities,
the plant managers had to increase the amount of labor-power hired. At
the same time, the rural reserves of labor-power were spent. This put
an upward pressure on wages.

Just as in ancient Egypt or the contemporary US, Soviet workers did
not control the fruits of their surplus-labor. A ruling class made
decisions about how that surplus would be extracted and used.


^^^^^
CB: I'd say the key is that the fruits of their surplus-labor went
largely to the material benefit of the working class , that is they
appropriated it rather than some ruling class appropriating it for
themselves. This is why it is not accurate to describe the Soviet
leadership as a ruling class.

As to the decision as to what to do with the fruits, it is not so
important who makes the decision but that the surplus value goes to
the working masses.  The republican form is representative, not
direct, democracy.  Modern nations with large populations cannot
practically have tens of millions making all decisions ( they'd spend
all their time making decisions and wouldn't have time to do anything
else ;smile)


>The Soviet leadership was not privately appropriating.<

so what?

^^^^
CB: That's what defines an exploitative ruling class. It's everything.
If there isn't private appropriation of social product, it's not an
exploitative system.

^^^^^

 they enjoyed collective wealth and power.

^^^
CB:  Howabout  an elite with power , but not wealth. The wealth was
distributed. I believe it's a GINI coefficient in your profession. The
Soviets would have had a low GINI coefficient.

^^^^^^^

Class rule does not
have to be rule by individuals, as under capitalism.

^^^^
CB: OK I see what u are getting at.

I interpret a _class_ as not individuals , but a "collective",
including under capitalism.

^^^^^


 It's a mistake to
generalize from the nature of class society under capitalism to assume
that reversing just one or two of the elements of that society
produces socialism, democracy, a lack of class antagonism, and a lack
of exploitation of the direct producers by some elite.

^^^^^
CB: The key difference is social appropriation instead of private
appropriation. As Marx and Engels say the goal of Communists is to
abolish private property. Private property is private appropriation.
They could be mistaken, of course.

But I see u are looking at "private" as "individual", which is
understandable.  I guess I'd say even Henry Ford had other
stockholders in the company.  But, each enterprise does often have a
main _individual_ owner. That might be your point.

Of course, a complicating aspect is that the capitalists can't
appropriate the millions of use-values that their enterprises produce.
 Henry Ford , his family and stockholders couldn't drive millions of
cars. The exploitation had to be of forms of money and then luxury
commodities.

Seems that pharoahs had their wealth in pyramids , in part.
Interesting that pyramids are on the dollar bill. I wonder if pyramids
had any other use-value except as tombs.

^^^^^^^

After all, the above-mentioned Egyptian ruling class didn't involve
individual property rights in the means of production or individual
appropriation of income from that ownership.

^^^^^
CB: If so, then _wasn't_ it a form of communism ? But I'm not sure
that that was so in Egypt at any time ( Egypt existed for hundreds of
years, for millenia).

 I guess the question is was there mass poverty and misery in Egypt,
as poverty would be defined in their time ? If the Pharoah and
retinue, priests, et al, had luxury items and pyramids to be buried in
that wouldn't necessarily require that anyone was poor.

Private property, i.e. a tiny minority (even if a group and not an
individual) appropriating the surplus is the defining characteristic
of exploitative productive relations.

^^^^^^^

Even though all Jesuits are poor as individuals (having taken a vow of
poverty) it does not follow that all Jesuits live a poverty life-style
or that there aren't some who live a much richer life-style than
others of the order.
--
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