Well, yes, Critias was supposed to have been a pupil of Socrates, but it is hard to know what to make of it, since we mostly know about it from Plato. If we're to believe anything in the dialogues, and maybe we're not, Socrates' relationship with them was at best troubled. He claims in the Apology (according to Plato, iow, but I seem to recall that Xenophon tells us something similar -- I would have to double-check) that he got out of politics because if he'd stayed in politics they would have killed him even sooner than they eventually did, and that he refused at one point to do the bidding of the thirty, endangering his own life at that time.
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Carrol Cox <[email protected]> wrote: > It's been some time since I read up on this & I forget the names. But > one thing we know (if I remember correctly) about Socrates is that his > closest friends and patrons were among the bloodiest tyrants in the > ancietn world during their brief rule after the vicotry of Sparta. > > Carrol > > Jeffrey Fisher wrote: > > > > Wow. I never expected to find an argument about Plato and Socrates in > > a thread with this subject line. > > > > There's much to comment on, but in short I agree mostly with Shane. > > The view you note below, Jim, about the development of Plato's own > > thought in the dialogues is, I believe, less in favor than it once > > was, and would probably be considered contentious, if not simply > > outdated. There's something intuitive about it, but that isn't really > > good argument or good evidence, especially in the case of Plato, who, > > for all his faults, is very complicated (oh, wait, that's not a > > fault?!?). Trying to figure out "what *Plato* thought" is a fool's > > errand, imo. Much more interesting and fruitful to just work with what > > we get in the dialogues and learn what lessons we can from them. > > Plato's *influence* is a separate matter. > > > > I think that to pin Christian chauvinism on Plato or neoplatonists is > > pretty difficult to do, also. Much more likely, imo, to be Stoic > > (there's a very substantial recent study of Paul and Stoicism). But > > then, I think Paul gets a bad rap here, largely because of what I > > believe are interpolations of later tradition into I Corinthians. I > > think it's really in the late first century and early second century > > Christian writings that the misogyny really comes into full force. > > Leaving aside the I Timothy material, you see it also in other > > doctrinal and ecclesial writings from that time. Although a lot of the > > more open gnostic stuff is from about the same time (although of > > course there's a strong androcentrism in gnosticism). > > > > On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 1:36 PM, Jim Devine <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > That's not evidence, but it's hard to imagine books like the > > REPUBLIC > > as reflecting Socrates' opinions, since (as I understand it) > > Plato > > created them from whole cloth after Socrates' death. I > > distinctly > > remember the prof saying that Plato's early dialogues were > > reports of > > actual Socratic discussions but then Plato ran out of > > discussions to > > report and created the convention of having a fictional > > Socrates as > > the main character to express his own thoughts. If I > > remember > > correctly, other authors followed this convention for > > awhile. > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > > pen-l mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l > _______________________________________________ > pen-l mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l >
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