On 8/13/2010 12:33 PM, Anthony D'Costa wrote: > The only ponzi thing about it is that retirement savings are used to > play the stock market and other financial games, which for all > practical purposes seems like a gamble. Of course we were always > told that not being able to mobilize personal savings into other > kinds of financial instruments meant that capital markets were > underdeveloped and from the returns obtained from stocks, at least > historically, this assessment was correct. But when all that is > solid melts into air I wonder if it isn't a ponzi scheme in the > larger scheme of things. > > My question would be how were savings mobilized into what forms when > say the great social democratic experiments began? I doubt that in > the early stages financial markets were that developed to absorb such > savings. Presumably returns were lower but was it not adequate > social security? It's a question I don't know the answer to. > And it's not a question that can be answered until the notions of savings, funds, etc., become defined in terms of a set of first principles. The empirical situation of financial markets and the "absorption" of savings have nothing to do with that. When economists of all stripes are transfixed by the "power" of investment funds that is flowing from a vulgar accumulation of money, all the while fully realizing that whenever growth is required, money can and will be freely created out of thin air, then not only have the inmates taken over the asylum and in effect are running it, but the power they confer on financial markets is just as bogus.
Imo, Doug hits it right on the head when he writes that: "Today's retirees are paid by today's workers. Tomorrow's retirees will be paid by tomorrow's workers." But I don't think this is based on a premise put forth or implied by Marx, nor of that by Keynes; because any type of "fund" would be entirely superfluous to that chain of events. I find it kind of pitiful that even one of the best and brightest we have in the fight against the dismantling of SS*, still uses the efficacy of a SS _fund_ in his argument against that Peterson (Foundation) hack who maintains that no such fund exist [in practical terms]. As I see it, in Doug's (and Max's) understanding of reality: the productivity increases achieved during the productive years of those just now retiring, which amounts to an almost doubling from when they started working, is now to be shared by a 3-5% increase in retirees alive as when compared to that same early period in time. The idea that society cannot afford that, must rank as one of the most ludicrous notions ever devised by the right-wing(nuts). John V *) Dean Baker, Beat the Press - Has the Washington Post gone mad? 8/11/2010 > > > On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Max Sawicky <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > It all goes to relative rates of growth -- contributor/contribution > v. beneficiary/benefit. Samuelson formalized this in the 50s, though > the old-timers (Abraham Epstein, Isaac Max Rubinow) understood it > from the get-go. > > > On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 3:05 PM, Doug Henwood <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> On Aug 13, 2010, at 2:57 PM, Bill Lear wrote: >> >>> Is there a good refutation for non-specialists of the notion >>> that Social Security is a Ponzi scheme? >> >> It's no more so than any pension scheme. Today's retirees are > paid by today's workers. Tomorrow's retirees will be paid by > tomorrow's workers. What's Ponzi about that? >> >> Doug _______________________________________________ pen-l mailing >> list [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l >> > _______________________________________________ pen-l mailing list > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l > > > > > -- xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Anthony P. D'Costa Professor of > Indian Studies and Research Director Asia Research Centre Copenhagen > Business School Dalgas Have 15 DK-2000 Frederiksberg, Denmark Ph: +45 > 3815 2572 Fax: +45 3815 2500 http://uk.cbs.dk/arc www.cbs.dk/india > <http://www.cbs.dk/india> > http://www.thisismodernindia.com/this_is_modern_india_about_us.html > xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > !DSPAM:3411,4c659e82177551774115770! > > > > _______________________________________________ pen-l mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l > > > !DSPAM:3411,4c659e82177551774115770! _______________________________________________ pen-l mailing list [email protected] https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
