> Previously, on St. Elsewhere...
>
> Simon(e) writes...
> > But of course, I'm sure you already know what makes
> > good language design, because otherwise you wouldn't
> > be mouthing off in here...
>
> Why is it that "Me" is *mouthing off*, but you're not? Why is that?
> What makes you so *special*? The fact you wrote a Perl book?!
> A book with more typographical errors than it has pages? *Zut!*
Actually, Simon's not that bad. We don't always get along, and sometimes
disgree less than quietly, but he generally makes sense.
I HAVE NOT followed this thread, so I'm only talking in generalities.
When trouble strikes, the type you're talking about, within a Perl forum, it
has been my experience that it has the appearance of ignoring an issue and
attacking a person regardless of what that person said. The more true the
person's statements, the more aggressively people, specifically referring to
Jan Dubois and Tom Christiansen in my own personal experience, attack the
person with complete and utter nonsense, usually personal, usually untrue,
apparently in order to avoid having to "answer to" anything or anyone. I
have seen these attacks come in such a way as to specifically shut a person
up by provoking him to wrath, then pointing out that he is impossible to
have a discussion with... and quiet resumes with the issues still in place.
This was a huge problem in the Perl 5 Porters, and it has recently begun
coming into the Perl 6 groups. This is why I've been distancing myself from
this group, including your previous call to arms.
We will achieve social reform only by refusing to conduct ourselves in this
manner, and without social reform, Perl 6 may as well not exist for all the
good it does us as a community. Sure, it gives some overbrained geeks a
chance to play around with language design for a while, but that's about it.
And, frankly, I think Simon's been a bit nicer since his book came out. I'm
just happy that it's red and doesn't have a trademarked animal on the front.
;-)
> "Me" may be s/wrong/clueless/... but I don't think any one of you
> has actually understood what he/she is talking about. "Me" is at
> least one level of abstraction higher than all of the rebuttals that
> have been fired back in this thread.
HOWEVER, (again, not reading OR caring about this thread), my first reponse
to "me" since his initial barrage a couple of months ago was that he had no
good intention. He(?) has since changed his attitude somewhat, but that
initial impression may be getting in the way for him.
> Right or wrong, "Me" or *you* for that matter...has the same right
> to post to this list...Otherwise, it should be a private list, perhaps:
Unfortunately, if we keep going in the way we're going, this will eventually
be a semi-private list the same what that P5P became one in order to keep
from having to take responsibility for their own actions or lack thereof.
This coin has two sides, Vijay.
> >"Larry Wall, Damian and the Acolytes of Doom debating Perl6"
This particular acolyte (the writer of this email - I would say 'me' but
that would make no sense in this context) just calls 'em as he sees 'em,
nothing to hide, no book rights or contracts to protect, no financial reason
to speak any way other than truth as best I know it.
> >"Just how much $foo can dance on the head of a dot operator"
>
> Is that you really want? "Why can't we (cough...) just get along?"
> Think about it (for a change...).
I read somewhere about the different stages of an online group. I believe it
was referring to IRC channels or newsgroups, but this applies here as well.
It describes that at first there is a lot of public interest because people
discuss without being told to shut up. They address problems, and discuss
things openly. In a later stage (there are several stages, but I forget what
they all are), ego, conceit, and bad attitude creep in. You can see such
attitudes on the P5P, EFNet #linux, and a few other places where people have
gotten stuck in this trap. The final stage, which I believe that EFNet #perl
has begun to achieve to some degree, and which we must strive to achieve, is
an equilibrium. (Actually it forks three ways: a) equilibrium, b) dispersal
to obliviion, or c) just plain stuck at the middle stage.)
That middle stage is unfortunate, but it must come in order to advance
beyond it, according to my reading. I'm not concerned about this or that
butthead for the time being. I'm concerned that, should those of us who
still have hopes for a new perl culture get discouraged and leave, buttheads
will be all that's left, and we'll have something even worse than the P5P.
Social reform takes time. I'm willing to wait it out as long as there is
some evidence that it is occuring in at least some minor degree. However,
attacking a person for making a valid point is never appropriate. I don't
know that this has happened, but plenty of experience with this nonsense
with Perl "higher-ups" leads me to believe that it's the most likely cause
of your post.
p
