On 2/28/07, Shlomi Fish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > P.S.: according to http://www.paulgraham.com/popular.html : > > <<<<<<<<<< > Let's start by acknowledging one external factor that does affect the > popularity of a programming language. To become popular, a programming > language has to be the scripting language of a popular system. Fortran and > Cobol were the scripting languages of early IBM mainframes. C was the > scripting language of Unix, and so, later, was Perl. Tcl is the scripting > language of Tk. Java and Javascript are intended to be the scripting > languages of web browsers. > >>>>>>>>>> > > So C, COBOL and Fortran were once scripting languages.
Paul Graham is using a very different definition of the term "scripting language". Conventionally, we understand it to mean a language which facilitates the quick development of utilities to control an application or a combination of applications. Fortran and Cobol were never scripting languages. They were application languages used for developing standalone systems or libraries. They were rarely used to control other tools or an operating system. What systems were ever "scripted" in Fortran or Cobol? When you have to submit a stack of punchcards for batch processing and wait overnight for the printout, that's not "scripting" by the conventional understanding of the term. And the operating systems and system tools were rarely written in Fortran; they were written in assembly language. Graham is using "scripting language" to mean "the standard language used to program a system." But this is somewhat backwards. Fortran and Cobol *became* standard and widespread because they were good languages for what they did. That's why they were adopted by many systems. The mere fact that a language is standard on a system doesn't make it popular. That's obvious enough. If anything, the scripting language on IBM mainframes was JCL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_Control_Language But I've never heard of JCL ever being a popular programming language or developing a hacker user base. For that matter, the scripting language on Unix was sh, and later csh, but aside from system administration scripts neither language ever became popular. Hated, maybe, but not popular. Another very popular, but usually forgotten, operating system was VMS. Its scripting language was DCL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIGITAL_Command_Language When's the last time you heard of it? I couldn't even remember what it was called. So, in response to Paul Graham: - C, Cobol and Fortran were never scripting languages. - They became popular (was Cobol ever popular...?) not because they were used on major systems, but because they were well designed languages for their tasks. - Being a scripting language for a major system does not ensure language popularity (though I admit it helps). - Anyone mention Python? Very popular, but what major system does it script? Mailman? Similarly, Perl *became* the standard language for Unix scripting because it was well suited to that role. No one ever said, "Here, stop writing shell scripts and start using Perl. It's the official scripting language of Unix." Hackers just realized how much more powerful it was than sh and csh, and they started installing and using Perl. Eventually, it became part of the standard system image. Unfortunately, the fact that modern Perl is a powerful environment for developing industrial-strength applications doesn't change the widespread impression that it's "just a scripting language". That affects both how people teach and learn Perl, and how companies think of using it. Regards, Jason Elbaum _______________________________________________ Perl mailing list [email protected] http://perl.org.il/mailman/listinfo/perl
