On 15 oct. 2013, at 14:46, Camillo Bruni wrote: > processing.org uses monospaced font, these are the art guys that have more > sense graphics > than any one this mailinglist > (BTW, how many of you have visited an art school?)
Me, many times. And surprisingly, most people there will tell you that (today's) art is not concerned with aesthetics :) > > Besides Smalltalk, I don't know any other language that would use proportial > fonts. > > After that, anybody who really knows how to use Pharo can modify it. > The newcomer is the only one you target... > > On 2013-10-15, at 13:57, Goubier Thierry <[email protected]> wrote: >> Interesting discussion. I'll raise a few issues. >> >> Le 15/10/2013 13:29, Esteban Lorenzano a écrit : >>> well... fonts and UX in general are two different (yet related) issues. >>> >>> UX is a huge an complicated task, and has to be taken very seriously if we >>> want to succeed. To allow the appropriate/productive/happy flows in an >>> environment requires a lot of effort and to put all the pieces together. >>> Yes, I know, that sounds so general that is like not saying anything :) >>> Here is the concrete: Put all the UX pieces together requires a lot of >>> effort usually not taken into account. That's how the UX evolved more or >>> less the same way as morphic: a patch over a patch without much thinking >>> about the issue, just takign what is there and parching/extending as >>> needed. As morphic, the current UX in pharo is broken: there is no >>> coherence between tools and sometimes even inside the same tool (for >>> example nautilus has different behavior inside the code panel than in the >>> list panels on top). >>> This is not the fault of any tool, just a consequence of how evolution was >>> managed until now. >> >> Some of the thing most forgot is that when you do a GUI, what takes time is >> not doing it, it's polishing it. Making sure all small things play together >> nicely, and that you've spent days trying to get that drag and drop to work >> in the perfect way, with the right feedback and all (and focus navigation, >> and...). >> >>> So, we wanted a better UX for Pharo3 that included: a new Theme, new Icon >>> set, and new tools that worked well together. But task demonstrated to be a >>> hard to beat beast, and we just moved forward in small areas (there is for >>> example a new centralized menu coming along with a new spotlight). >>> And there is a prototype of a new theme and also some icons that where >>> thought specially and that will fit nicely. But they will not be ready >>> this year and after thinking a while (and getting feedback of people in >>> community), we decided, for Pharo3: >>> >>> - adopt the glamour theme. This is a step forward our current one because >>> glamour guys (specially Doru) continued working on it to have a really >>> clean and simple theme. >> >> Is it the default theme coming with the latest 3.0, with that flat look? >> Hate it because it breaks one HCI guideline visual cue: feedback when >> pressing on a GUI element (scrollbars, buttons); there is none in that theme. >> >> There it looks like a step backward, coming back to the squeak look (which >> turned me away from squeak for many years: yes that's not rational but can't >> get over it. Pharo was the first to give me back the feedback at the GUI >> level) >> >>> - adopt the EclipsePack theme because is an iconset specially thought for >>> programming that plays very well together. No matter if you do not like >>> Eclipse (even if I think you are missing the relevance of Eclipse and a lot >>> of good ideas that we could take from them), is about creating a unified >>> vision. The old icon set (famfam) was not intended for programming >>> environment and also there were a lot of different icons incorporated >>> anarchically. >> >> Iconset are hard. But some of the Eclipse iconset are downright ugly >> (packages). >> >>> - adopt a monospaced font for coding (right now Source Code Pro) and a >>> non-monospaced for the rest (right now Open Sans). >> >> Hum. Once you're set on a non-monospaced font for coding, as most >> smalltalkers have, going back to a monospaced font will hurt... I'm not even >> using a monospaced font for coding in C :( >> >>> The objective is to offer a L&F that where visual elements plays well >>> together. >> >> Work on that is the real key. Not sure the theme changes are part of it, >> however. >> >> I value more a drive to get everything Spec-iffied: tends to create a lot of >> common look and feel because applications tend to behave in the same way. >> >>> And there is another more important (IMHO) objective: to offer newcomers an >>> environment easier to approach. Pharo (and all Smalltalk-inspired >>> environments) is already very alien for newcomers. We get a lot of power >>> in exchange of that alienish stuff, but very often the curve of learning or >>> acceptance is too high and people that could step closer to us are pushed >>> away. So, my idea is to keep been as alien as possible in the things that >>> make us Pharo and be the less alien possible in the rest: A nice L&F that >>> can be feel as "some kind" familiar, is part of it. >> >> It's a good objective, but... There is something there; Pharo is different >> enough in it's approach that trying to match Eclipse won't work and may even >> disrupt more, because you will make it alike where it is not. >> >>> Said so... well you still can switch back to the old and ugly (IMO) L&F >>> executing some lines of code in your workspace. >> >> Or a setting somewhere :) >> >>> Same to fonts: monospaced fonts is the worldwide accepted way of present >>> source code. Why should we stay different? >> >> I wouldn't be so sure of that. >> >>> In any case, please give it a chance before drop it (once I can actually >>> see why the fonts are not really applied) and we'll see how it works. >> >> I will :) But, I'd be frank, here none of us is a HCI specialist, and it >> shows. Sorry, but it does. No usability testing, no look into HCI >> guidelines, but, at the same time, probably the most advanced GUI toolkit >> available (Morphic), some of the best mind when it comes to architecturing >> GUI code (and code on average), and the most productive environment around. >> >> If you want to make it familiar, look into Dolphin and VisualWorks and copy >> that :) >> >> Thierry >> -- >> Thierry Goubier >> CEA list >> Laboratoire des Fondations des Systèmes Temps Réel Embarqués >> 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex >> France >> Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95 >> >
