> Hi Stef,
> 
>> Now people hear me well: you are ready to hear well. Lower the music 
> 
> Beside the fact that I like listening to loud music I really lowered it ;) 
> But even with silence in the room your response told me nothing new regarding 
> the topic discussed.

Then read it again :)
Because it is really serious and I will just repeat the same. 
Pharo should be welcoming. I hate the kind of teaching: “you had a lot of 
barriers to get there and you succeeded,
of course 95% of the classrooms died in the process and prefered JS"

> It is not a discussion about "who has the vision" or "who want to get stuck" 
> I think we all share the SAME VISION to move forward with a fresh dynamic 
> programming environment and are not afraid if we move away from our original 
> roots.
> Otherwise we would'nt be on this list or do even radical changes.

I do not know. So far you are the first ones that ask interesting questions :).
To me the other complaints were more like arguments against changes. 

> But still the simple question left to be anwered here: what will this change 
> of reducing the 
> class template in the default browser give us? What problem did it really 
> solve?

shorter, nicer, simpler class definition :)

> The answer given so far is that it may be problematic when teaching because 
> you want to
> introduce to language features step by step. But you said yourself in your 
> own post 
> that 
> 
> <quote>
>    It is BORING to have to say to kids:
>       - do not care of classvar
>       - do not care of pooldictionaries
> </quote>
> 
> So my question: if you are bored of the "complexity" of BOTH (!) 
> - why do we hide pools now 
> - and leave class variables still left in the template? 

Because classVar and more central 
I would remove them too and I REALLY hope we will. I hate to see all these 
empty strings all the time.
In the template why not but why in the class definition?

> I really do not understand because with the change it now looks in 
> Pharo3.0 Latest update: #30732 like this:
> 
>    Object subclass: #Foo
>       instanceVariableNames: ''
>       classVariableNames: ''
>       category: ‘Bar'

Because we did not remove them yet but I would love that too.
And because classVar are more central that Pool.

> So why do we keep class vars then? According to your mail we would have to 
> remove them too.

Yes and instance variables too :)
Don’t faint but why do we need an empty list of instance variables for classes 
that do not define instance variables?
Seriously: lack of good default value? lack of understanding what is optional?

To me a class is a 
name 
superclass
package

then optional and in any order instance variables, class var and to make happy 
everybody pool

> Additionally this change violates the intention of a template (which one 
> usually just has to fill out) 
> and one now has to remember the original full keyword and have to type it in 
> again - which is IMHO 
> really awkward and stupid. 

Yes I was talking about the actual class definition not the template
> 
> So with all respect: I still can not see the introduction of the reduced 
> template as a step forward 
>                     or an improvement. 
> 
> Music is still lowered and ears are all open...
> 
> Thx
> T.
> 


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