On 11/5/14 09:39, kilon alios wrote:
"What does "not support" mean? People have successfully deployed apps
on both iPhone and Android. Pharo can not (easily) be developed on
iPhone but can be deployed there-on. One can't develop iPhone apps on
iPhone. you need a Mac for that. Does that mean Apple don't support
iPhone??
"
I think you replied what support means. Support means that there is
group of people out there to support you with your problems on that
platform. Pharo does not officially release for those platforms and
there are only a couple of applications that I know that run on iOS
both from the same developer. So pretty much you are on your own.
Well this is not true because Esteban helped a lot hilaire and there is
also Jeff
"I disagree with 4. If graphics are done by external libraries (and
note that even BitBlt in Pharo/Squeak is not implemented in Squeak,
but in C) graphics can be as fast in Pharo as in anything else."
It should not be a problem for an educational game anyway , I was
talking about games that are very demanding graphics wise. In those
games most of the code is most demanding anyway and so they use
dynamic languages only for scripting game logic .
how can you discuss when the requirements are so under specified.
"IMO this is a /really bad/ answer. There are Pharo and Squeak apps
deployed on Android and iPhone. The answer shouldn't be "this is a
bad idea", it should be "you can deploy natively like this..., or you
can deploy with a native UI and Smalltalk logic like this...". But
the answer should never be "this is a bad idea". Alas I don't spend
my time deploying apps so I don't know how to do it, only that people
have (I have DrGeo on my iPhone). So can those that know please write
an FAQ that answers ralph's question? I wish I could :-/"
Well let me put it this way. Its been 12 hours since the OP has asked
the question and the only two people who answered the question are
clueless about these platforms. I think the situation verifies exactly
the situation I was describing in my reply.
Come on. When you do not have experience just think twice about what you
think you know and the advice
you want to give.
"Kilon, please don't take this personally but someone could easily
interpret your answer as "you're better off programming in JavaScript.
Pharo can't do deployment. " That's both a terrible and an incorrect
answer. I hope we can do much better."
I don't take it personally when people disagree with me, I find it
refreshing because I may learn something new.
No he cant interpet it like "Pharo can't do deployment" because I
already mentioned in my first reply that there are pharo apps
distributed on iOS and especially DrGeo is a really nice app that I
have used. if he interprets my post "you're better off programming in
JavaScript" then yes he would be exactly right. Because that was my
intention. I also mentioned Amber that is Smalltalk that compiles to
Javascript so I think I did not force him to consider only JS as an
option.
By the way I would love to be proven wrong because I also would love
to develop for those platforms with Pharo but right now I dont feel
confident about it. As you said it there is not even documentation
about the process. I remember someone once posted instructions on how
to compile Pharo on iOS but people did not show much interest and it
just disappeared.
Please prove me wrong !!!
But this is not by saying that people should not do it then.
Stef
On Sun, May 11, 2014 at 12:23 AM, Eliot Miranda
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Hi Kilon, Hi Ralph,
I wish I could answer with concrete information. But that's not
what I spend my time doing. However, I need to correct the
impression the following answers give. I think they're
discouraging to say the least.
On Sat, May 10, 2014 at 2:03 PM, kilon alios
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
I am no Pharo expert but will try to answer with what I know
1) Pharo download is 16 mb compressed and 58 mb uncompressed.
and can be stripped. It is easy to get a development environment
into 16Mb (e.g. Newspeak). Applications can easily fit in 16Mb.
Applications don't need to be deployed with sources or changes files.
2) Pharo is a standalone and as such it does not need
installation. Everything you need is in a single folder
contained in a single zip with a single download. I dont think
you can get any easier than that. So its a single task.
But there are scripts to create platform-compatible installers on
Mac OS and Win32 if that's what you want.
3) There are people who run Pharo on iOS like DrGeo. But Pharo
does not support those platforms and most likely you will
experience few problems with it. So its some extra work but
its doable. They do represent a larger market and a very
important one I agree.
What does "not support" mean? People have successfully deployed
apps on both iPhone and Android. Pharo can not (easily) be
developed on iPhone but can be deployed there-on. One can't
develop iPhone apps on iPhone. you need a Mac for that. Does
that mean Apple don't support iPhone??
4) Again I dont know the issues on those platforms but bare in
mid, Pharo is a dynamic language and dynamic language are
definetly not a first choice for those platforms for game
because they are slower than official supported languages.
Those are in iOS ObjectiveC and on Android Java. All that
assuming your game has some demanding graphics. For simple
graphics with not much animation and such you should be ok.
I disagree with 4. If graphics are done by external libraries
(and note that even BitBlt in Pharo/Squeak is not implemented in
Squeak, but in C) graphics can be as fast in Pharo as in anything
else.
Personally I think its not a good idea, because Pharo does not
support those platforms well. I think that in that scenario
there is a better alternative , that of Javascript + Pharo.
Its possible to use JS as front end and Pharo as backend. If
you dont want to code in Js there is Amber. Web apps are quite
performant so you will be able to do some really impressive
graphics with this recipe. You will be using also technologies
that are well documented and well tested.
IMO this is a /really bad/ answer. There are Pharo and Squeak
apps deployed on Android and iPhone. The answer shouldn't be
"this is a bad idea", it should be "you can deploy natively like
this..., or you can deploy with a native UI and Smalltalk logic
like this...". But the answer should never be "this is a bad
idea". Alas I don't spend my time deploying apps so I don't know
how to do it, only that people have (I have DrGeo on my iPhone).
So can those that know please write an FAQ that answers ralph's
question? I wish I could :-/
Also there are like a ton of game libraries for JS out there.
Which will lift the amount of work you will need to do for
your game.
Kilon, please don't take this personally but someone could easily
interpret your answer as "you're better off programming in
JavaScript. Pharo can't do deployment. " That's both a terrible
and an incorrect answer. I hope we can do much better.
--
best,
Eliot
