Sven, You don't believe that it is worthwhile ... that's okay ... you are entitled to your beliefs.
Frankly, when you integrate git into a Smalltalk environment (and I have) you are not messing with 100's of little files ... you are working with methods and packages and classes ... the stuff that Smalltalk programmers work with every day ... and I don't even think about how the source is being stored because in my environment I work with methods, classes and packages and I rarely look at the disk (just like most Smalltalk programmers and unlike most Java/C#/Go programmers:)... Git brings another dimension to my smalltalk development experience in a couple of very critical areas, so I don't have to believe, I know... I do believe that it is worthwhile to integrate git into Smalltalk development environments and I'm doing something about that and I am willing to help other folks with similar beliefs ... So at the end of the day you can be as negative or as positive as you like and I will continue to plug away:) Dale On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 2:04 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[email protected]> wrote: > > On 26 Jun 2014, at 22:28, [email protected] wrote: > > > > > Le 26 juin 2014 21:54, "Esteban Lorenzano" <[email protected]> a > écrit : > > > > > > > > > On 26 Jun 2014, at 16:38, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > I know you, and some others, have that opinion and that is OK. > > > > I also think that it would be nice to have (better git integration). > > > > > > > > But we essentially have it today, although a bit cumbersome, awkward > (cfr https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core). Some of us store all > their code in git all the time. > > > > > > > > My opinion is that it is not per se the most important thing. We > have to focus on the aspects where we are better, not try being more the > same as everybody else. > > > > > > > > We need modularisation, better tools, new ways of working with live > objects, new interactive representations, mouldable tools, remote image > tools, automatic cloud deploys, magic stuff, .. > > > > > > yes… and better git integration is part of “better tools”. > > > and IMO, with the “plus” that it can boost the other areas. > > > > Yes, Git enables all of code and assets in one single place and tooling > that helps a lot with changes ( e.g. gitk ). That is huge in practice. > > I know that there are lots of git tools out there, but how do these help - > they are disconnected from the image, and thus disconnected from our > regular way of working (senders, implementors, references, ...). > > The current source code format in git is cool, but can you manage a merge > or diff like that, with all the different parts scattered over 10s, 100s of > files, with no matter what tool ? Apart from the fact that such bigger > merge is always very difficult, no other tools will support our world view, > ever. > > > https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core/commit/a4c40ae92c67b2d4d63635d89dac0f7bbaa214d5 > > You and I understand the above, no Java/C#/Go programmer will. > > The next discussion will be: what are all those silly method files, why > not put them all in one file ? Then the question is, what are all those > silly exclamation marks in our file out format ? And so on. > > I don't want to sound too negative, I just don't belief it will actually > make that much difference. > > > Phil > > > > > > > > Esteban > > > > > > > > > > > On 26 Jun 2014, at 20:52, Esteban Lorenzano <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > >> On 26 Jun 2014, at 14:56, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >>> On 26 Jun 2014, at 19:07, Dale Henrichs < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>> I think that it is possible to most if not all of the git work > support into the Smalltalk development environment ... I am doing that for > GemStone with tODE[6] and I do find myself going to the go to the command > line much less frequently ... but in tODE I have built a git merge tool and > a git diff tool ... you can get the git history of a method from the > browser, etc. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Without a relatively high degree of tool integration it can be > clunky to use git ... I am very willing to share what I've done/learned in > tODE with Pharo tool builders and of course I think Thierry Goubier has > actually been ahead of me in several different areas ... > > > >>> > > > >>> That is my analysis: it works today, 'perfectly', but there is not > enough tools support to make it as easy as Monticello as a whole is today. > > > >>> > > > >>> If these tools exist, or we can build them quickly based Dale's > code, that would be cool (I guess its all OSProcess underneath, which I > find so/so, a direct integration is better) that would be good. > > > >>> > > > >>> Would having this change our world fundamentally ? No, IMHO > > > >>> Is it worth the effort, is the ROI there ? I don't think so > > > >> > > > >> I disagree here. I think moving our development to git will change > deeply (for good) our community processes and then I think it totally > worths the effort. > > > >> Of course, important part of the advantages came from the tools > around git (like github) more than git itself, but all is one and the same > :) > > > >> A couple of examples of what I think will improve our work: > > > >> - pull requests instead SLICES > > > >> - submodules (with different people taking care of them) > > > >> - traceability: you can map an issue with a pull requests directly > making it a lot better to query > > > >> > > > >> Then there is other kind of advantages like: > > > >> - better entry-point for newbies to the community (they all expect > something like git this days) > > > >> - better visibility > > > >> - confidence. This is subjective but important: companies feel more > confident with something like git than a specific tool to keep their > sources. > > > >> - we can stop maintaining things like smalltalkhub and important > parts of monticello itself and concentrate our efforts in other, more > interesting areas > > > >> > > > >> … and there are more. > > > >> > > > >> In conclusion, I think expending time in git integration is one of > the best ways to contribute to the develop of Pharo nowadays. > > > >> > > > >> Esteban > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >>> Anyway, it is a delicate subject as it also touches on the > representation of the file format. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
