Why we cannot use the of Juan?
Le 10/5/15 10:36, Esteban Lorenzano a écrit :
+1
let’s recapitulate:
requirement is
- fast
- editable
why do you need to edit it?
- polymorphic with WriteStream
- and immediate to screen
from our perspective (pharo), it has to be also
- thread safe
- well designed.
our constraints are:
- bad design of transcripts
- super naive implementation of text editors (this is, IMO, the reason
why transcripts are so slow: if you redraw all the window interior
each time you add a line, you are screw)
basically… we need a good log console (if it is a transcript or not,
is another discussion) :)
So… who proposes a solution?
Esteban
On 10 May 2015, at 00:40, Yuriy Tymchuk <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
For me saying that internals are not important as long as transcript
does what is expected from it, is like saying that Parser being a
subclass of Scanner and Compiler being as subclass of Parser is ok as
long as it compiles source code. We already had that and it was bad.
On the other hand it’s obvious that we don’t have enough resources to
rewrite Pharo from scratch and we cannot leave issues as they are
just because we cannot solve them perfectly now.
I would say that Igor is correct saying that we need a better
architecture, and Stef and Eliot are correct saying that we need
tools that fulfill users’ needs. And we have to say: “ok now we hack
this around, but we have to do this the right way one day”. Is anyone
familiar with same-css[1] concept?
Uko
P.S. maybe my 2 cents are useless, but all the fight around this
discussion is really strange for me. In Ukraine we have a saying that
it’s better to be healthy and poor than sick and rich. Now I use to
say that it’s better to be healthy and rich than sick and poor. And
all the fight here was if it’s better to be healthy or rich.
Definitely it’s better to be both, we cannot do that instantly but we
can set goals and milestones, and find the optimal strategy.
[1]: http://csswizardry.com/2013/04/shame-css/
On 09 May 2015, at 16:17, Eliot Miranda <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 5:29 AM, stepharo <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Eliot
I changed the transcript because it is not thread safe so I
could use it at all to explain concurrent programming output.
It was terrible.
I don't see what that has to do with my usability point. The
transcript was
a) a stream
b) something that displayed its output immediately
Those two features are essential. If you change the transcript so
that it no longer has those features you have broken it.
Igor waffled on about internals, the desire to separate the UI from
the stream, a point that has nothing to do with the utility of the
transcript. No you're going on about its thread-safety. But no one
is addressing my point. And you have Clément telling you that he
cannot develop the VM in Pharo because the transcript is broken, and
you have others proposing various potentially error-prone
work-arounds to get around the fact that the transcript is broken.
Why won't anyone stand up and say yes, the transcript is broken and
yes we will fix it? This is dysfunctional.
Stef
Le 8/5/15 16:16, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
Hi,
if one uses a at doit transcript then no special action
is required to get output to appear beyond sending flush to
Transcript right? So any solution that requires special
action to get the moronic transcript to work us broken. We
should fix the transcript, not expect every application to
work around a bug.
Eliot (phone)
On May 8, 2015, at 6:15 AM, Alain Rastoul
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Le 08/05/2015 11:34, stepharo a écrit :
Hi guys
the Transcript in Pharo is that it's not
asynchronous so I can't use it
in VM development to show the current progress of
the simulation. For
example:
1 to: 100 do: [ :i |
0.1 seconds asDelay wait.
Transcript show: 'x'. ]
=> on Squeak, this shows a x every 0.1 second in the
Transcript
=> on Pharo, nothing happens during 10 seconds then
all the x are shown.
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/default.asp?15515
Yes, as do it are evaluated in the World morphic
process, running in a forked process or sending World
doOneCycle in the loop solve the problem.
Probably in squeak, in Transcript this is done somewhere
under the hood.
via dependents ?
TranscriptStream>>endEndtry
"Display all the characters since the last endEntry,
and reset the stream"
self semaphore critical:[
self changed: #appendEntry.
self reset.
].
Object>>changed: aParameter
self dependents do: [:aDependent | aDependent
update: aParameter]
And probably not doOnecycle since you cannot do anything
else during execution (clicking or moving windows).
--
Regards,
Alain
--
best,
Eliot
