Hi Stef,

As explained before Brick is where the main focus will be next. I think that 
once the editor will be working, we should see more visible movement in that 
department.

Cheers,
Doru


> On Jan 26, 2017, at 8:39 PM, stepharong <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> I think that instead of investigating gtk (yet another library to bind and 
> carry around),
> it would be smarter to have Sparta back-end using an accelerated Cairo + 
> pango.
> Why? Because
>       - For example Cairo will not disappear in the future (here you will 
> tell me that it does not have all the full
>       features.... I think that Bloc should deliver Brick first and focus on 
> this because else it will stay a nice
>       experiment.)
>       - We do not have bench with an accelerated compiled version so no idea 
> if this is good enough.
>       - Cairo is about 1.5 mb vs 20Mb and it is packaged.
> 
> I share the concerns of Esteban about the maintenance of such Mozz2d bundling 
> and he was pretty
> clear with me, he will not maintain it nor take any responsibility about 
> pharo using it.
> 
>       So having a Cairo Sparta back-end would be a smart move.
> Stef
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> Thank you for the intensive set of issues you raised during the Bloc 
>> presentation. I think it is worthwhile addressing them more thoroughly, so 
>> let me start with the issue that seemed to have caused the most worries: 
>> Sparta & Moz2D.
>> 
>> Please keep in mind that while I am involved to some extent in Bloc, the 
>> real credits for the current state go to Glenn and Alex.
>> 
>> Moz2D (https://github.com/mozilla/moz2d, 
>> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Platform/GFX/Moz2D) offers an advanced backend and 
>> using it puts us on par with the rendering speed of a web browser, which is 
>> a significant added value over what we have now.
>> 
>> However, as it was noted, it does come with a cost due to the fact that it 
>> is not available as standalone with only the features we are interested in. 
>> The vector graphics part is actually buildable out of the box. However, the 
>> text support needs to be extracted out of Moz2D, and this is where the 
>> patching scripts are used. The patches are there only for compilation 
>> purposes and not for features and they are applied automatically. You can 
>> see it here:
>> https://github.com/syrel/Moz2D
>> 
>> Alex updated recently the Moz2D version and it worked without problems. Of 
>> course, future changes in Moz2D might imply changes in this script as well, 
>> and this implies that we will need to maintain that script. And we could 
>> imagine applying these patches on the trunk of Moz2D to see if they work, 
>> and we can also imagine engaging with the Moz2D owners to see if we can find 
>> a middle ground.
>> 
>> Now, let’s put this into perspective. We are currently using Athens and the 
>> Cairo backend. While Cairo is provided as a standalone library it has not 
>> seen significant advances since Mozzila shifted its focus towards Moz2D. So, 
>> sticking with it might not be an ideal strategy either.
>> 
>> Furthermore, just like Athens, Sparta is an abstraction that allows us to 
>> switch the underlying backend should we need to. Until now we did not find a 
>> cross-platform backend that is as advanced and complete as Moz2D, but there 
>> is no reason to think that none other will appear in the future. Skia is an 
>> alternative but it is only a vector graphic engine without text support, so 
>> using it would imply to have another library for the text support.
>> 
>> Sparta also comes with a reasonable set of tests that is aimed at testing 
>> the basic Moz2D functionality to make sure that the assumptions on top of 
>> which Sparta is built are correct.
>> 
>> All in all, I think that the current situation is not ideal, but there is 
>> already enough engineering in place to actually make it work. And I 
>> definitely think that the potential it opens is rather significant.
>> 
>> And, if more people look at the scripts, we might find even better and 
>> cheaper ways to express it.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Doru
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> www.tudorgirba.com
>> www.feenk.com
>> 
>> "We cannot reach the flow of things unless we let go."
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
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--
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www.feenk.com

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