hi Dimitris (good to see you around ;) ), thing is… we want to improve our tools.
And improve tools sometime means to add stuff (I’m not very happy with it either, I would like to remove more than what I add, but it is like that). For example, if we want to have good class comments, we need some markup format, then the best thing we have is pillar and then we need a parser and then the easiest to use thing we have is petit parser. Which means we will need an image that have a core PetitParser and a basic Pillar… so we can have proper documentation. Of course, maybe the full pillar is too much (as it is the full petit parser, probably) so we need to think carefully what we put inside and what we left outside. Same is with everything: why to put athens, or glamour, or X, Y, Z. (things that few people use, but are very important for our echosystem in general). Now, along with this “bloating” movements, that adds more elements to the system and because of that increases essential complexity, we are working on the other direction: bootstrapping and modularising Pharo so in the near future (it should be done for P7 or as late to P8) you will be able to create an image with the elements you want. Another thing we need to work on (but that’s in part documentation and in part modifications to be done) we need to work on overall availability/comprehensibility of the system. So… we need to continue adding things, in order to continue improving. We also need to remove a lot of things that are duplicated or obsolete. Pharo will always be “the deliverable we make” (including all things we officially support as “part of it”)… but we are making possible that everybody can also do “the Pharo they want”. cheers, Esteban > On 17 Aug 2017, at 14:01, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.al...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Is it really necessary ? > > I am more a modular guy , I would love to get an image that 0.1% the size of > the current one and offer me a convenient package manager to install the > tools I like. > > I have used Pillar ALOT probably more than any other Pharo library because I > was doing Pharo documentation stuff. > I have even used Pillar to build my website , yeah I know that is not the > pupose of Pillar but with some modification and the addition of a tool I > created (Octopus) it help me generate some portion of the website via > mustache. > > Do I want Pillar in ? Nope > > Already the System Browser looks like a monster ready to eat you alive, I > think we need to make the image a lot less threatening especially for > newcomers. There is such thing as too much info. > > Pillar is in the Package Browser you just click and install it if you dont > mind the wait because its a rather big install. > > On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 11:27 AM Peter Uhnak <i.uh...@gmail.com > <mailto:i.uh...@gmail.com>> wrote: > Even though I've initiated this discussion I kind of stopped reading because > everyone started discussing completely unrelated things... > > The initial point was.... "we are using github/gitlab more and more, lets > leverage it more" > > New, lets separate the concepts at play here... > > "Pillar - document model" - the workhorse of pillar and (imho) the most > important part of it, and also the part I am interested in being included. > Because then I can generate the document directly without using any syntax... > > "Pillar - syntax" - we can have endless arguments whether the syntax is good > or bad, and imho that should be a separate discussion unrelated to the Pillar > inclusion > > "Markdown for unrelated usecases" - whether you can or cannot write your > thesis in markdown is really irelevant here > > "Markdown - export" - there will always be different variants and extensions > for Markdown, simply because the sites using markdown offer different > capabilities. > > Therefore the first focus should be on the most impact/effort ratio, which is > CommonMark (basically the only meaningful Markdown specification), and GFM > (which is a CommonMark with added tables and strikethrough). > > Adding support for more extensive export support, whether code related (e.g. > GitLab), or code unrelated (writing a thesis) should be a future discussion, > it is not relevant or too effortful right now. > > "Markdown - import" - I would love to be able to write markdown and have it > imported into the Pillar document model, however that is imho moot point > right now, as it can always be added later > > > To summarize: > > * primary > * include pillar document model > * include pillar syntax (as an import format) > * add CommonMark+GFM export > * secondary > * discuss Pillar syntax if needed (in a _new_ thread) > * discuss Markdown parser / importing CommonMark into Pillar model > * any other discussion not pertinent here should go elsewhere > > Peter > > > On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 06:05:29PM +0200, Esteban Lorenzano wrote: > > Hi, > > > > In general (you all know me), I have the policy of “do not go alien just > > because” which means we do not need to reinvent the wheel all the time and > > we need to stick with what is already there and known (I have pushed many > > changes in pharo following this direction, iceberg being just the latest), > > but we need to keep also the basis of what we are (which means: when we > > need to stay alien, we need to embrace it too). > > > > Said that: while I would LOVE to have a markdown compatible format, the > > amount of effort put on pillar to make it *what we need* and is a format > > used not just for doing README.md but to write books, etc., then replacing > > it would be complicated. > > > > but… I think we can do pillar syntax more “markdown alike” (and we can even > > have a stripped-pillar with would be even more like md), I would salute > > such change. > > > > cheers, > > Esteban > > > > > > > On 15 Aug 2017, at 19:23, Eliot Miranda <eliot.mira...@gmail.com > > > <mailto:eliot.mira...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 15, 2017, at 7:25 AM, Ben Coman <b...@openinworld.com > > > <mailto:b...@openinworld.com> <mailto:b...@openinworld.com > > > <mailto:b...@openinworld.com>>> wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 12:54 AM, Esteban A. Maringolo > > >> <emaring...@gmail.com <mailto:emaring...@gmail.com> > > >> <mailto:emaring...@gmail.com <mailto:emaring...@gmail.com>>> wrote: > > >> You hit several birds with one single mail. > > >> > > >> 2017-08-14 13:34 GMT-03:00 Tim Mackinnon <tim@testit.works > > >> <mailto:tim@testit.works <mailto:tim@testit.works>>>: > > >> > Jimmie et al. nicely reasoned arguments - and Doru's point about > > >> > controlling > > >> > the syntax is an interesting one that I hadn’t thought about. > > >> > > > >> > Personally, I find having too many similar syntax’s confusing - > > >> > contributing > > >> > to things is hard enough - having to remember that its !! Instead of > > >> > ## and > > >> > “” instead of ** is just frustrating for me. > > >> > > >> +1 > > >> > > >> Not only for docs, most platforms like Slack/Discord share the syntax, > > >> so now I'm getting "muscle memory" when typing literals using the > > >> backtick (`) character, quoting with > or pasting snippets using ``` > > >> > > >> +1. So I've posted this before... > > >> > > >> https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/06/03/strategy-letter-iii-let-me-go-back/ > > >> > > >> <https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/06/03/strategy-letter-iii-let-me-go-back/> > > >> > > >> <https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/06/03/strategy-letter-iii-let-me-go-back/ > > >> > > >> <https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/06/03/strategy-letter-iii-let-me-go-back/>> > > >> describing that "The only strategy in getting people to switch to your > > >> product is to eliminate barriers" > > >> > > >> But more... the best reason for Pillar to support a Markdown-ish syntax, > > >> is that when we scratch-our-own-itch (nominally for Pillar) to build the > > >> best damn markup-editor ever (because we can!) - if this happened to > > >> support Markdown it can draw in Markdown-non-Pharo users (because its > > >> the best editor ever!). Those users later want to make modifications, > > >> and now have a *reason* to learn Pharo... ahHaA! now you see the cunning > > >> plan... > > >> > > >> So don't just promote to people "hey come and play with this cool toy of > > >> ours (Pharo)." > > >> Instead give them a toy they *already-want* (Markdown editor) and then > > >> when they want to change the batteries, they *need* to use our special > > >> screwdriver (Pharo). > > > > > > +1! > > > > > >> > > >> cheers -ben > > >> > > >> > > >> > Sure, maybe we were first with Pillar, but for me, lots of programming > > >> > is in > > >> > other languages, and I use Smalltalk where I can, and a hybrid of > > >> > multiple > > >> > languages and projects is often the reality - so a lowest common > > >> > denominator > > >> > of Markdown is just easier. The fact that we are quite close to what > > >> > our > > >> > colleagues in other languages use (regardless of what Python has > > >> > chosen), is > > >> > quite interesting. > > >> > > >> This helps building "bridges" with other communities. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> The language as a means of exchange is always the lowest common > > >> denominator. > > >> As long as it's "efficient enough" then I vote to use what other > > >> communities use. > > >> > > >> > That said, if the community wants to stick to its gun’s thats fine - I > > >> > will > > >> > probably still investigate how to use Commonmark for myself, and will > > >> > still > > >> > contribute to Pillar docs where I can (and curse history) - but I > > >> > think we > > >> > are long better off trying to join emerging standards where we can > > >> > particularly if they aren’t our core language thing. And it just makes > > >> > it > > >> > less frictionless for ourselves and newcomers. > > >> > > >> The "Not Invented Here" syndrome is strong among Smalltalkers, it's > > >> important to be aware of this bias and think more than once whether > > >> eating our own dogfood adds value to the core of what Pharo brings. > > >> > > >> I think we missed some good years fighting with our own SCM and in the > > >> end git (or any other file based SCM) prevailed, even when it has > > >> limitations. > > >> > > >> Pareto (80-20) for everything non-core business should be a guide. > > >> > > >> > Of course, if we were to move, we would need to translate a lot of > > >> > quality > > >> > docs to a new format - but I would be up for contributing to that if > > >> > that > > >> > was a deciding factor. > > >> > > >> There are some Markdown exporters AFAIK, or it could be written. > > >> > > >> > > >> Esteban A. Maringolo > > >
