2008/12/18 Oscar Nierstrasz <[email protected]>: > > I didn't understand a thing :-( > > I seem to have touched a sore spot, but I do not know what the background > is. > > Can someone summarize? Technically and politically, what is the current > status of Hydra, and what are our options for using it as a basis for > multi-core Pharo? >
First, I think this discussion missing two important persons: Eliot and Andreas. Andreas is one, who behind the idea of Hydra VM. Eliot is making serious rewritings of squeak VM (namely Cog). There are plans to merge Hydra & Cog and continue with a new VM. This is beneficial in many aspects: i really think that best for all of us is to join efforts to produce better VM, instead in having multiple branches Squeak/Cog/Hydra VMs. Currently, works on Hydra is suspended because the more changes i do, the harder it would be to merge with Cog. Merging mess of low-structured low-level code of VMMaker is tough task, so i don't want to make it harder. :) Moreover, Hydra initially was proposed as experiment initiated by Qwaq, implemented by me. It turned out to be successfull one. :) But to leverage it, we need a much more than just VM - we need people who think/know how to adopt things to get benefits from multithreading. Squeak images simply not ready for this. We should have a better ways to scale: instead of loading bloated images (each for own interpter), we should think how to lessen the bloat and use single central image, which then managing smaller/nimble ones. That's why i keep making noise about modularity: we need modules which can be easily installed and run more or less standalone without cross-package dependencies. There is nothing wonderful in Hydra alone: we should attack the problem from both ends - language side and VM. > - on > > On Dec 18, 2008, at 10:08, stephane ducasse wrote: > >> Ok this is clearer now. >> >> Stef >> >> On Dec 18, 2008, at 9:40 AM, Klaus D. Witzel wrote: >> >>> On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:13:11 +0100, Stef wrote: >>> >>>> Klaus >>>> >>>> if you want to have a clear answer from esug: >>> >>> You're mixing up things here. If Pharo people want to run Hydra on their >>> Mac, they could approach ESUG for funding. >>> >>>> - follow the process (cf the web page) >>>> - write a clear request >>> >>> Since you (not me) would be the benefitor, go ahead. I was only the man >>> who suggested the combination. Don't blame the messenger, don't put your >>> work on him. Is this clear now? >>> >>>> So far it was a little mail about moebius and not Hydra. >>> >>> Yes, clear. But it is the same developer, namely Igor, who would do that >>> for Pharo Mac users. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Klaus >>> >>>> Stef >>>> >>>> PS: ESUG has a board and we discuss and vote before taking decision. >>> >>> Really? ;) to me you seem to be more concerned about your own political >>> attitude than about getting Hydra to the Mac/Pharo community. >>> >>> Please take notice that I know precisely how the democratic process in >>> the ESUG board is supposed to work, no lecture necessary from your side. You >>> are wasting time (not the first time with me). >>> >>>> On Dec 17, 2008, at 7:58 PM, Klaus D. Witzel wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Alex, >>>>> >>>>> I'm sorry I'm just a frequent reader of the Pharo mailing list, so >>>>> here's my response by email. Feel free to forward it. >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:11:52 +0100, you wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Igor and Klaus, >>>>>> >>>>>> Having a description about Hydra will really help promoting your >>>>>> project. >>>>>> Maybe we could continue what I started to write... >>>>> >>>>> The Hydra VM is usable as is and in production, serving heavy used >>>>> Croquet site, IIRC. Hydra has everything you need for the Multi-core VM of >>>>> Squeak: >>>>> >>>>> - launch and control multiple .images in native threads >>>>> - control these threads from the Smalltalk language level >>>>> - communicate beween .images through channels >>>>> - any number of related/unrelated .images can be run >>>>> >>>>> What is not done yet (Igor would correct me) is making Hydra available >>>>> on Mac and Linux(en). >>>>> >>>>> In light of recent discussion with Stef about ESUG founding, I would >>>>> suggest you perhaps consider to make Hydra available for you Mac users. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Klaus >>>>> >>>>> P.S. Alex the "rest" of the discussion you recalled above (the paper >>>>> you suggested) is about a very particular use of Hydra technology, formost >>>>> for and by enthusiastic VM engineers to be "the first" who get it going. >>>>> Hydra can do and does well without all that (without the cloning of object >>>>> subgraphs "baby Hydras" from the running .image): just save an .image file >>>>> and then start it up in Hydra. >>>>> >>>>>> Alexandre >>>>>> >>>>>> On 17 Dec 2008, at 09:52, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi folks, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Has anyone looked at the Qwac Hydra stuff? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.qwaq.com/HydraVM/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2008-February/125719.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There was quite a lot of discussion on squeak-dev ast February, but >>>>>>> not much since then. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would really love to see a multi-core Pharo. If someone has an >>>>>>> idea >>>>>>> how this could be done, I would be interested to learn more. I think >>>>>>> getting Pharo to exploit multi-cores could be a big selling point in >>>>>>> the future ... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - on >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Pharo-project mailing list >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig. _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [email protected] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
