On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 3:46 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <[email protected] > wrote:
> prepare it and help building the pharo-dev script and it will be there. > No problem :) Laurent > > On Nov 24, 2010, at 3:36 PM, laurent laffont wrote: > > > On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 3:15 PM, Stéphane Ducasse < > [email protected]> wrote: > > PharoCore should be really small at the end. > > Why a testing framework should be in the core when you can load it and > load the tests? > > > > OK. > > > > So I vote for a Mock library in Pharo (Dev). > > > > Laurent > > > > > > Stef > > > > > > > > > I'm lost ... actually tests are in PharoCore. It is planned to remove > them ? > > > > > > Laurent > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Stéphane Ducasse < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Nothing should be in the core (not even the tests) > > > in the core we should have a way to load package from a distribution > server. > > > > > > Now if this is in Pharo-dev this is another story :) > > > We can get tests and mock and mock framework. > > > > > > Stef > > > > > > > > > > I agree with you Dennis. TDD practices are far ahead in Ruby / Java / > Python world. > > > > > > > > BUT IMHO can be a real cool neaty great platform for TDD because we > have: dynamic development. > > > > > > > > What I think we miss: > > > > - put a Mock framework in PharoCore - Mocks should be a standard > tool even for low-level stuff > > > > - introduce pragmas to declare tests / setUp / tearDown methods so I > can write > > > > > > > > AddressBookWithLaurentAndDennis>>createAddressBook > > > > <setUpTest> > > > > bla bla > > > > > > > > AddressBookWithLaurentAndDennis>>shouldHaveNumberOfContactsAnswersTwo > > > > <test> > > > > blabla > > > > > > > > > AddressBookWithLaurentAndDennis>>ifDennisRemovedNumberOfContactsShouldAnswersOne > > > > <test> > > > > bla bla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - (harder) interface to / creation of an executable requirements / > BDD framework like Cucumber http://cukes.info/ > > > > > > > > Laurent > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 4:31 AM, Dennis Schetinin <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > As for me, I'm simply unable to establish smooth test-driven process > without Mocks. I think it does not depend on language at all. > > > > > > > > Without mocks I have to divide the task I have into smaller > independent parts. It's actually an up-front design. I can make a mistake (I > usually do); even worse it's often just impossible to accomplish because too > many subcomponents usually interact thoroughly and I simply don't know which > one to implement first :). So, without mocks I have to code bottom-up, from > details to general. This is unnatural and error-prone. > > > > > > > > With mocks I can start directly from the task I have. I get a use > case and write a test for the one. Creating the test I detect subcomponents > needed, understand how they should interact and document that in the same > test. As those subcomponents do not exist yet, I have to specify them and > their behavior right in the test (if I don't want to break the process I've > just started). That's why I really need mocks. Then I can take another use > case or implement one of the mocks I used as a real object and so on. Thus, > mocks allow me to go top-down and implement only the things I really need, > not the things I think I'll need. > > > > > > > > Are there other, maybe better, approaches? > > > > > > > > Concerning TDD popularity… I'm not sure TDD plays the role it should > in Smalltalk community. > > > > > > > > Messing with Smalltalk for about 7–8 years, I can't say I often see > real TDD code. About 50–70% (depending on Smalltalk dialect) of frameworks I > use have no tests at all. The rest often looks being tested a posteriori. > Perhaps, Pharo is the only exclusion… > > > > > > > > And if TDD is really popular and widely used, why do we have so much > regression bugs even in core subsystems even in commercial Smalltalks? > > > > > > > > Please, correct me if I'm wrong. > > > > > > > > 2010/11/23 laurent laffont <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 5:39 PM, Luc Fabresse < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > Hi Dennis, > > > > > > > > Yes, TDD is highly popular and encouraged in the Smalltalk > community. > > > > And mocks are not necessary in most cases. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Luc, > > > > > > > > why Mocks are less necessary in Smalltalk than in other > (Ruby/Python/whatever...) languages ? Do you have some examples / link ? > > > > > > > > Sometimes I think a mocking library should be in PharoCore so I don't > need to write my own mocks..... > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > Laurent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > #Luc > > > > > > > > > > > > 2010/11/23 Dennis Schetinin <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > How is it compared to Mocketry ( > http://www.squeaksource.com/Mocketry.html)? SMock? > > > > > > > > BTW, isn't TDD without mocks a bit incomplete? And is TDD popular > among smalltalkers actually? > > > > > > > > 2010/11/22 Mariano Martinez Peck <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > This is cool Anindya. I don't need mocks right now, but I will keep > it in mind! > > > > > > > > I cc'ed Pharo-dev mailing list. > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > Mariano > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > > From: Anindya Haldar <[email protected]> > > > > Date: Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 10:11 AM > > > > Subject: [Pharo-users] TestMock: a full featured mock testing > framework now available in SqueakSource > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pharoers, > > > > > > > > TestMcok is a full featured mock based test framework that I am very > glad to contribute to the community. It is in squeaksource under the project > name TestMock. Please feel free to try it, and feedback will be greatly > appreciated. The wiki section includes a brief how-to guide with code > examples. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Anindya Haldar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Pharo-users mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-users > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Dennis Schetinin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Dennis Schetinin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
