On 29 September 2012 07:28, Chris Muller <[email protected]> wrote: >>> You should not expect that -- Pharo used to have it but it was removed >>> in favor of a more mainstream editor look-and-feel -- so that it be >>> would more attractive to new users. Command+J / Control+J are just >>> two of several powerful code-editing capabilities Pharo originally >>> inherited from Squeak, along with my other favorites Command+E = >>> Exchange the last two selections and Command+[, (, {, or | = Surround >>> the highlighted text with that bracket-type pair. (not sure if those >>> are still there in Pharo). >> >> Now what would be really cool is to have a documentation about all >> those, and make them easily >> discoverable. I worked with Squeak long enough, and didn't saw >> anything close to that. >> I said that it is 'command-g' instead 'command-j' exactly because of >> that, because you never know... >> And for me it was always felt like: >> - let user discover shortcuts by pressing random key combinations and >> see what happens. >> And then tell me, what are the chances that people will understand >> what exactly cmd-j does without >> reading documentation? In 99% of cases it will be 'oh.. what was just >> happen' .. >> This is about "more attractive". >> And if you hiding knowledge behind sealed doors, don't be surprised >> that someone will come and build a new library with open doors, >> replacing yours. > > You didn't look hard enough -- it's under the "help" menu. Squeak 3.0 > is the earliest I have on my HD but.. yes, it was there then and its > still there now.
Maybe i didn't look hard enough (well actually i did, cause i remember looking for the code which implements/introduces them).. Still since you cannot remember all shortcuts at once , unless they are catching your eye (in context menus/elsewhere), you tend to forget/not using them. What i can say about Pharo 2.0 today, that yes, a new shortcut is a bit alienating (because many you need to learn from scratch), but in other turn they are much easier to discover. And if you try Nautilus, you can figure, that you can do everything without even touching a mouse. I can hardly characterize this as "newbie-friendly"/anti-poweruser approach, but IMO it is much more friendly to power-users.. once you learn shortcuts, of course. Still, this is a work-in-progress, but i like the way guys doing it.. we'll see the end result once dust settles :) > Ok, I know you just forgot we miss you too Igor. ;) > but i cannot spend my time on everything, everywhere. I need to focus on stuff i do :) > I admire Pharo blazing new trails but notice a pattern in some of the > "gold" feedback from Pharo customers which worth taking to heart. > Like: > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2012-May/064702.html > What can i say, it is of course not nice when you breaking old habits, unless you have a good reasons for doing so, and when you don't provide alternative(s). >> This is, what i think, happens with shortcuts changes in Pharo, except >> form those which was remapped. >> >>> Pharo favors _familiarity_ for new users somewhat at the cost of >>> productivity for its experienced users. It somewhat resembles eclipse >>> -- with pop-up dialogs and a seemingly "modal" philosophy. Squeak, by >>> constrast, has kept pushing the "simple-but-powerful" philosphy of its >>> IDE to near extremes. While it's less familiar for new uesrs, once >>> learned, general navigation and editing require _far fewer_ gestures. >>> >> Another thing, is that i first time hear that pharo is in favor of >> newcomers at expense of experienced users. >> I am not involved in changes to key bindings / shortcuts, but i doubt >> that people, who doing that, making changes having such strange aim. >> I think they are focused on making it good for newcomers and >> experienced users both. Otherwise i don't see much sense in doing this >> at all, and would be first who will be against it. > > Ok, glad to hear that. I would rather have the best system possible > than one with the most mainstream acceptance. i can say you, it has nothing to do with mainstream: it is just new people , who learned things differently, and of course their preferences influencing the choices they do. i , for instance, i a long-time windows user. And many things in squeak were alien to me, like using alt-key instead of control key for most of shortcuts. Still, it doesn't matters as long as they meeting two key criteria: - consistent - easy to learn. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
