I still would like to complete my collection of Vogues, if anybody has Queen For A Day, that you are willing to sell, contact me off-line. Thanks Al Menashe ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <phono-l at oldcrank.org> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 2:27 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values
> hi all > i have many early victor picture records and they seem to hold up a bit > better than the vogues > but they are all fun to collect > disney even had some sung by frank luther such as dance of the boogey > man > and the winnie the pooh group in the early thirties > > > > In a message dated 8/14/2008 4:44:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > cdh041 at earthlink.net writes: > > Or, possibly that Saffady felt that the aluminum substrate, allied with > the > flexible plastic would make a virtually indestructable sandwich. Plastics > were not as well understood in 1946 as they are now. And too, as I have > to > remind everyone I chat with, records, radios, cars, phonographs were not > expected to be in service, or indeed, even existence 50 years after they > were made. We have no right to demand eternal survival of anything more > than perhaps, Gibraltar or the Rockies......and per Ira Gershwin, they're > only made of clay! > > >> [Original Message] >> From: Greg Bogantz <gbogantz1 at charter.net> >> To: Antique Phonograph List <phono-l at oldcrank.org> >> Date: 8/14/2008 4:26:03 PM >> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values >> >> Yes, the vinyl records from the postwar period have held up > surprisingly >> well so far. Certainly better than magnetic tape from that period. If > you >> can manage to find a Vogue that hasn't been played or scratched to >> death, >> the sound quality on them is pretty good. But one of their potential >> problems is the oxidation of the aluminum substrate. I have more than > one >> Vogue that has been severely cracked or chipped in years past which has >> allowed moisture and air to get to the aluminum surface. This causes > mild >> to severe powderizing and bubbling of oxide to form on the aluminum >> which >> then bubbles up the paper and vinyl sheet laid on top of it. This >> damage >> can usually be heard before it's seen - the bubbling causes a noticeable >> increase in the rumble content when you play the record. I'm not sure > why >> Vogues were made with an aluminum substrate rather than using a vinyl > core >> as is done with modern picture records. Might have been a patent >> infringement thing since RCA and others had made picture records in the >> 1930s. >> >> Greg Bogantz >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Douglas Houston" <cdh041 at earthlink.net> >> To: "Antique Phonograph List" <phono-l at oldcrank.org> >> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 2:45 PM >> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values >> >> >> > Indeed. There have been very few plastics that have had any >> > permanence. >> > Catalin has shown to be more stable than many others, but when the >> > plasticizer finally dries out of the plasticx, it's curtains for the >> > piece. >> > In the thirties, plastics were all the panic. There were things shown >> > in >> > plastics that were downright sensational. I'm sure that a lot of >> > people >> > thought that glass would soon be made obsolete by gorgeous plastic > things. >> > Well, my mother and my aunt didn't throw out their cut crystal, and I > now >> > have a couple of cabinets full of it. >> > >> > In those days (that I remember so well), the automotive industry went >> > ballistic over plastics too. Today, there are guys who re-mold >> > steering >> > wheels for those cars. The big plstic was Tenite I, a plastic by > Tennessee >> > Eastman in Kingsport, Tennessee. You'll travel long and far to see an >> > original steering wheel on a prewar car!. However, I have a '38 > Cadillac, >> > with the original steering wheel, and still decent dash plastic, and >> > you >> > just don't ever see that. >> > >> > Which brings us to the Vogue records. Tom Saffady, a tool and die > maker >> > on >> > East eight mile road in East Detroit (Across 8 Mile from Detroit) got > the >> > idea of making these pretty records. I understand that he used an > aluminum >> > base, attached the artwork to it, and molded the plastic to it, >> pressing >> > the recording in the same operation. While I don't know for sure what > the >> > plastic is, I'm sure that it's a vinyl, and of the best quality at >> > the >> > time. When they hit the stores, they made quite a splash, and they >> > sold >> > well, more for their novel character than anything else. No surprise, > they >> > were priced higher than the major brand shellac discs, but their charm >> > gave >> > them their value. Sadly, the novelty wore off, and Saffady wasn't able > to >> > get the price down to meet the competition. He had tried to have a >> > multiple >> > pressing rig, to perss (I believe) nine discs at once, but it never >> > worked. >> > He folded, unfortunately, and his building later housed a cutthroat >> > department store caled something like Hall of bargains. One day, I > passed >> > there, and the place had been gutted by fire, and not all of the walls >> > were >> > standing. I believe that there is a fast food place on that site >> > today. >> > >> > So, what about the plastic that Sav-Way Industries (Tom Saffady) used >> > on >> > those discs? Astoundingly, it seems to have held up very well. Since > Vinyl >> > plastics harden and shrink with age, I would worry about the Vogue >> > discs >> > deteriorating at some time in the future. Plastics are not permanent, > and >> > the newest Vogue disc is about 62 byears old. The aluminum core will > not >> > shrink, but the plastic could. >> > >> > >> >> [Original Message] >> >> From: Greg Bogantz <gbogantz1 at charter.net> >> >> To: Antique Phonograph List <phono-l at oldcrank.org> >> >> Date: 8/13/2008 5:02:57 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values >> >> >> >> Doug, it's especially ironic that you use the phrase "the base in > the >> >> catalin game is crumbling". Not just the base, but the cabinets >> > themselves. >> >> Catalin degenerates steadily and eventually falls apart with age. >> > Shoving a >> >> bunch of money at catalin is like stacking time bombs on your shelf. > Not >> >> unlike investing in Edison 4-minute wax amberols. Sit them on your > shelf >> >> and listen for the steady "clink, tink, clunk" of the records >> >> self-destructing as the temperature and humidity changes in your >> >> house. >> >> "Investors" who sink a lot of money in these absurdities deserve what >> >> they're going to get - a pile of dust before it's all over. >> >> >> >> Greg Bogantz >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Douglas Houston" <cdh041 at earthlink.net> >> >> To: "Antique Phonograph List" <phono-l at oldcrank.org> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 4:43 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values >> >> >> >> >> >> > Reading all these comments looks like the replay of a lot of >> >> > collector's >> >> > panics over the years. I saw it with coins, back in the sixties, > with a >> >> > friend who was into them, and I probably know of other similar >> > situations >> >> > as well. The price level spirals up to the point that the only >> >> > exchanges >> >> > are from dealer to dealer. Dealers begin to get tired of getting >> >> > the >> > same >> >> > item over and over, and somewhere, somebody stops buying. It is > then, >> >> > that >> >> > the tower tumbles, and a lot of nspeculators lose a bundle on >> > now-lowered >> >> > value stuff. >> >> > >> >> > One thing that comes to mind right now, is the hunger for radios >> with >> >> > catalin cabinets. They've gone thousands of bucks for some models. >> >> > As >> > far >> >> > as radios go, the chassis in them are 99.9999% cheap, and dinky. >> >> > It's >> > the >> >> > pretty plastic cases that are the real issue. It isn't radio > collectors >> >> > that want them. It's those who want the pret-ty colorful cabinets, > and >> > of >> >> > course, the capital gains that result from the exchange of them. >> >> > >> >> > On the surface, at least, there has never been any short supply of >> >> > them. >> >> > There are dealers in the big rado meets, who have 20 or 30 of them >> >> > on >> >> > their >> >> > table. It's amusing that lots of sellers on the 'bay call a >> >> > bakelite >> > radio >> >> > cabinet Catalin. I'm sure that many a buyer has been badly >> >> > jostled > by >> > one >> >> > of those shysters, but the buyer should research, and know what he >> >> > / >> > she >> >> > is >> >> > buying. Anyway, it's now beginning th look like the base in the >> >> > catalin >> >> > game is crumbling. There are signs that prices are possibly on the > way >> >> > down, and I'd be delighted to see it happen. The cabinets are >> >> > pretty; >> > the >> >> > radios are garbage. >> >> > >> >> > One of the things that killed Vogue records in the first place was > that >> >> > they never had a hit. I also recall that they were priced at $1.05, >> > while >> >> > the major labels sold for $.75 I bought a couple of them, new back >> >> > then, >> >> > not for what was on them, but because they were pretty. Someone >> >> > has >> >> > already said that Vogue discs are desirable, not so much for their >> >> > programmatic content, but their cuteness. Today, wise people are >> > pulling >> >> > in >> >> > their horns, and hanging on to their mazuma. We are already in an >> > economic >> >> > slump, and it promises to get slumpier. I can imagine other >> >> > scenarios >> > like >> >> > this in the days ahead. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> [Original Message] >> >> >> From: Mike Stitt <smstitt at gmail.com> >> >> >> To: Antique Phonograph List <phono-l at oldcrank.org> >> >> >> Date: 8/13/2008 2:13:30 PM >> >> >> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values >> >> >> >> >> >> Vogues went high after Ed Curry's book. Before the book they were >> >> >> cheap. I even found them at Goodwill. >> >> >> The market is very soft across the board. High prices bring more >> >> >> to >> >> >> market. eBay helped to do that. Collectors get all they need. I >> >> >> suggest Vogues in the market exceeded interested or new collectors >> >> >> entering into that market. Most casual collectors are content to > have >> >> >> a few as they define a genre. Few want a complete number run >> >> >> (production run) at a $100 a pop. IMHO. The Queen for a Day a few >> >> >> years back went for "stupid money." >> >> >> I have many Vogues and have little interest in them at those > prices. >> >> >> Mike >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 10:37 AM, Albert <cenfin at comcast.net> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> > for sure, I got bit by the bug and bought up as many as I could >> > trying >> >> > to >> >> >> > complete the collection and I almost did, but have probably lost >> > about >> >> > half >> >> >> > of my investment. I am missing the Transformer and Queen for a > Day. >> > I >> >> > have >> >> >> > to assume those are still worth a lot. Al >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> > From: <wilenzick at bellsouth.net> >> >> >> > To: "Antique Phonograph List" <phono-l at oldcrank.org> >> >> >> > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:20 AM >> >> >> > Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Thanks for your interesting comment on the Vogues. I agree >> >> >> >> with >> > you >> >> >> >> on >> >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> reason for the drop in value of the Wurlitzer 1015, but I am >> >> >> >> not > so >> >> > sure >> >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> same argument applies to the Vogues. The 1015's were bought >> >> >> >> and >> > sold >> >> > as >> >> >> >> entertainment devices, and the bars, etc. that bought them for > 45s >> > and >> >> > CDs >> >> >> >> could care less if they were original or reproduction machines. > On >> >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> other hand, vogues were generally not bought for their music >> > content, >> >> > but >> >> >> >> rather as vintage collectibles. Prior to eBay, collectors >> > considered >> >> > them >> >> >> >> to be "scarce" items, and most record collectors, I would >> think, >> > would >> >> >> >> have >> >> >> >> little interest in the reproductions. Once eBay demonstrated >> >> >> >> to >> >> >> >> the >> >> > hobby >> >> >> >> that they were rather plentiful, the prices started to drop to > the >> >> > current >> >> >> >> low values. I don't know how well the reproduction Vogues are >> >> >> >> doing >> >> > these >> >> >> >> days, but I don't see them advertised very much (although I >> >> >> >> don't >> > look >> >> > for >> >> >> >> them). Whatever the reason for the price decline, Vogues don't >> >> >> >> look >> >> > like >> >> >> >> good investments these days :) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Ray >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> >> From: "Albert" <cenfin at comcast.net> >> >> >> >> To: "Antique Phonograph List" <phono-l at oldcrank.org> >> >> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 12:01 PM >> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> Ray, I think Ebay actually raised the value of vogues and >> >> >> there >> > was a >> >> > lot >> >> >> >>> of >> >> >> >>> activity for a long time on ebay. Many hit the market and it >> >> >> >>> was >> > not >> >> >> >>> unusual >> >> >> >>> to see them go for more than $100. But the prices started >> > dropping >> >> >> >>> quickly >> >> >> >>> when a lot of reproduction Vogues hit the market. The repros >> > looked >> >> >> >>> pretty >> >> >> >>> good and they were copies of some of the more desireable > numbers. >> > I >> >> >> >>> compare >> >> >> >>> that to the Wurlitzer 1015 where originals used to sell for >> > $12,000. >> >> >> >>> With >> >> >> >>> the huge number of reproduction 1015s that played 45's and >> >> >> CD;s >> >> >> >>> the >> >> > value >> >> >> >>> of >> >> >> >>> originals dropped to $5000 to 6000. I may be wrong but I >> >> >> dont >> > think >> >> > it >> >> >> >>> was >> >> >> >>> Ebay so much as the proliferation of reproductions. Al >> >> >> >>> Menashe >> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> >>> From: <wilenzick at bellsouth.net> >> >> >> >>> To: <phonolist at yahoogroups.com>; <Phono-L at oldcrank.org> >> >> >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 4:55 PM >> >> >> >>> Subject: [Phono-L] Vogue Picture Records values >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>> Around 10 to 15 years ago, most Vogues (except the rare 8 or >> >> >> 9 >> > ones) >> >> >> >>>> sold >> >> >> >>>> in the neighborhood of $100 or so. With the advent of eBay, >> >> >> >>>> their >> >> > value >> >> >> >>>> has dropped significantly. It seems that most go for >> >> >> >>>> $20-$30 > or >> >> >> >>>> less >> >> >> >>>> these days. Value guides were available at one time, but >> >> now > are >> >> >> >>>> worthless. Are there any Vogue collectors on the list that > would >> >> > have a >> >> >> >>>> spreadsheet or other information on current values of these >> > picture >> >> >> >>>> records? Is there a factor, such as 1/4 or 1/3 that could be >> >> > applied to >> >> >> >>>> the old values that would approximate the current value? > Thanks >> > for >> >> > any >> >> >> >>>> information.. >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> Ray Wilenzick >> >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >>>> Phono-L mailing list >> >> >> >>>> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> -- >> >> >> >>>> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. >> >> >> >>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> >> >> >>>> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/955 - Release > Date: >> >> >> >>>> 8/15/2007 >> >> >> >>>> 4:55 PM >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >>> Phono-L mailing list >> >> >> >>> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> Phono-L mailing list >> >> >> >> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org >> >> >> > >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > Phono-L mailing list >> >> >> > http://phono-l.oldcrank.org >> >> >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Phono-L mailing list >> >> >> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > Phono-L mailing list >> >> > http://phono-l.oldcrank.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Phono-L mailing list >> >> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Phono-L mailing list >> > http://phono-l.oldcrank.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Phono-L mailing list >> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > Phono-L mailing list > http://phono-l.oldcrank.org > > > > > > **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your > budget? > Read reviews on AOL Autos. > (http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 > > ) > _______________________________________________ > Phono-L mailing list > http://phono-l.oldcrank.org
