At 08:48 26/07/2001, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote:
> > Just replace your if ($ok) with if (!empty($ok)), and you have a perfect
> > exploitable code that produces no warnings.
>But in this case someone has gone to the trouble to figure out what
>empty() does. And generally they use empty() on things that come from the
>user anyway. I don't think I have ever seen people use empty() to check
>to see if they themselves have set an internal variable to something.
I have... And quite a lot use isset(), which is much more common and
popular than empty(). My guess is that we're dealing with a fairly big
number of users/scripts here, which are exploitable even though they're
'clean' scripts with no warnings. I'm all in favour of turning E_NOTICE's
on (I was since day one and so was Andi, but back then, most people
supported the 'loose' behavior of PHP/FI 2 as a default, and leave
E_NOTICEs as an option you have to explicitly turn on).
> > Right, but I gave a more specific example - HTTPS, which doesn't always
> > exist, and its very existence implies something. Not all variables are
> > exploitable, perhaps even most aren't, but many are.
>Don't people use $SERVER_PORT for this? Would seem to make more sense.
>But sure, there may be a few variables like this.
Yes, it was just an example. I know at least one script in zend.com which
uses HTTPS that I came across a while ago, so such cases definitely exist.
> > They're trivial to come up with; Pretty much any good code (E_NOTICE free)
> > that doesn't take into account the fact that variables can pop out of
> > nowhere into your global namespace is exploitable.
>I still think that turning on E_NOTICE by default is a good first step
>that we can take right away without waiting for a 4.1 and adding more
>emphasis to the documentation about these issues. With the E_NOTICE
>people at least get a warning and a line number and most apps will still
>work, they will just look very ugly forcing people to go and address the
>warnings. Turning off register_globals will simply break the applications
>with absolutely no hint as to why the application was broken and the end
>result will be that people simply turn register_globals back on to get
>things to work.
I actually think that turning E_NOTICE on is going to have a huge effect on
a mind boggling number of scripts, probably on the same order of magnitude
as setting register_globals to off (probably less, but not that much
less). I think that unless we explain explicitly and vocally why we're
making these changes (register_globals and/or error level), people will
just reconfigure php.ini to the old settings - I don't think they'll start
running after new E_NOTICE's they suddenly get after upgrading, unless
they'd know they have a good reason to.
I think that new PHP installations should come with register_globals set to
off. Instead of php.ini-dist and php.ini-optimized, we should probably
have php.ini-recommended, which would be the default installed file
(assuming there's no php.ini to begin with), and php.ini-compat, which
would be what php.ini-dist is today. No doubt, this would cause many
(perhaps even most) PHP applications out there not to install out of the
box, but I think that setting register_globals off is a pretty pressing
matter, and without some pain (i.e., forcing app authors to update their
apps to work with the track_vars arrays) we won't get anywhere.
The way I think we should go about this is:
(a) Improve the accessibility of the track vars array by shortening their
names to $_GET, $_POST, etc. and possibly making them implicitly
available inside functions. This can be done relatively quickly.
(b) Get the word out that as of PHP 4.0.8, register_globals will be off, so
that app authors will have a chance to fix their apps.
(c) Release 4.0.7 with the new improved track vars, but with
register_globals still set to on
(d) Release 4.0.8 with register_globals set to off
We can (and probably should) make the E_NOTICE change at the same time.
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