Larry, from your post, it sound like the actual topic of the proposed vote would be actually banning Paul from the mailing list altogether?
> I am reasonably sure we'd all agree that person needed to be kicked from the list and forbidden from returning. There is some threshold of behavior past which a person is actively destructive to a community, no matter how smart or insightful they may be on any given topic. I'm sure phrasing it as a total ban instead of just replacing a representative is a whole new deal even for even those supporting expelling Paul. On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 12:48 AM, 'Alexander Makarov' via PHP Framework Interoperability Group <[email protected]> wrote: > Well said. Absolutely agree. > > Anyway, revoking vote is irrelevant. What other options are there? > > If it were forum engine, I'd proposed official rules that state that > "Personal offense isn't tolerated. Each occurrence results in ban for a > week. X repeating occurrences results in permanent ban no matter what". > Could something like that be enforced in a mailing list? > > > On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 12:36:55 AM UTC+3, Larry Garfield wrote: >> >> On 06/24/2016 07:07 AM, Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: >> > Hello, >> > >> > First up I am not in favor of expulsion because even if you agree that >> Paul is “toxic”, I doubt that a standards committee will really remain >> relevant if it cannot deal with supposedly “toxic” people, ie. we would >> need to find other solutions for this. Also even if he is no longer a >> member of FIG, would he then get banned from all list? >> >> A number of people have made similar statements here; I'm going to reply >> to them collectively in this reply, as Lukas' line above is a good >> poignant example, but it is not aimed at Lukas specifically. >> >> "I doubt that a standards committee will really remain relevant if it >> cannot deal with supposedly “toxic” people" >> >> I find this statement, and the sentiment behind it, extremely >> disconcerting and rather dangerous. It, along with other comments in >> this thread, seem to suggest "FIG should deal with toxic people by just >> sucking it up; if you can't stand the heat get out of the fire." >> >> Haven't we learned by now that is the worst possible way to deal with >> hostile or toxic individuals? Have we learned nothing in the last few >> years, as an Internet community? >> >> "If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen", by its very >> nature, rewards those who throw the most flames. It drives off >> contributors and community members who, frankly, have better things to >> do with their time than deal with flames, disrespect, and negativity. >> We have people who have said they have been driven away from FIG because >> of the negative atmosphere that Paul creates. (See Michael's initial >> email.) >> >> Harm is being done: Is the answer really "well so be it, only the >> think-skinned will survive"? Do we really want to say "Well man up and >> deal with it, bro"? >> >> That's not an answer. That's a refusal to take responsibility for your >> community. >> >> Communities don't just survive on their own. They require maintenance. >> They require weeding. >> >> Do people really feel FIG would get more respect in the broader PHP >> community if we said, explicitly, "we don't mind if you're a jerk, >> people need to grow a thicker skin"? Really? I don't believe that for >> a second. >> >> Conversations can get testy, sure. The recent discussion about >> middleware styles got strained in a few points, but at no point did I >> feel like Woody or Rasmus were talking down to me. (And I certainly >> hope they feel the same about my points in that thread, as that was >> never my intent.) There's a huge difference between disagreeing >> strongly on a point and belittling or demeaning someone. >> >> If someone (a hypothetical someone) came on the list and spent their >> time spewing racist epithets at people left and right, declaring >> everyone's proposal a sign that they should have been euthanized at >> birth, and generally just being abusive, I am reasonably sure we'd all >> agree that person needed to be kicked from the list and forbidden from >> returning. There is some threshold of behavior past which a person is >> actively destructive to a community, no matter how smart or insightful >> they may be on any given topic. >> >> To not recognize the existence of that threshold, wherever it is, is to >> create a magnet for toxic, hateful people. >> >> See also: >> >> http://anildash.com/2011/07/if-your-websites-full-of-assholes-its-your-fault.html >> >> We could certainly dispute where that threshold is. That's a fine >> conversation to have. We could discuss whether Paul's behavior is over >> that threshold. That's the conversation we should be having. We could >> debate whether an intervention is possible or if removal is necessary. >> That's largely dependent on Paul, who has so far been silent in this >> discussion. >> >> But to say that it's FIG's responsibility to suck it up, "deal with" >> toxic people by letting them continue to be toxic, grow a thicker skin, >> and let people leave who can't take the heat (as a number of comments >> have suggested) just because someone happens to also have useful things >> to say is a actively self-destructive, self-defeating, and will drive >> off far more people with useful things to say than it attracts, by an >> order of magnitude or more. >> >> A healthy and constructive debate atmosphere is our responsibility. All >> of us. That includes the reformation or removal (as appropriate) of >> those who cannot contribute toward that healthy atmosphere. >> >> --Larry Garfield >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "PHP Framework Interoperability Group" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/php-fig/w38tCU4mdgU/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/php-fig/f1a925a9-f494-4df0-a2a8-a7b9348dd6f6%40googlegroups.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/php-fig/f1a925a9-f494-4df0-a2a8-a7b9348dd6f6%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PHP Framework Interoperability Group" group. 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