Glad to know I'm on the right track - or at least there are others out there 
with the same prejudices!

Btw, I'm not that bothered about waiting for documentation :-)))


On 3 Aug 2010, at 09:53, Robert Goldsmith wrote:

> Hi :)
> I know exactly where you're coming from and the reason we've re-worked both 
> Zend Views and Zend Forms is specifically to both separate template from php 
> and to make the use of the modules such as Zend Form much more optional :) 
> Within Zend, Form and View are a weird (and not, in my opinion, very MVC) mix 
> of php and html and if you use a View or a Form you are pretty much stuck 
> with doing things the 'Zend' way.
> Our take is to replace Zend View entirely with PHPTal and split Zend Form 
> into 2 parts - the logic and the rendering. The logic for Zend Form is the 
> same as in 'normal' Zend and validation and filtering of form elements works 
> as expected. The rendering has been moved to PHPTal and you simply hand a 
> Zend Form instance to a top-level macro to actually do the rendering. If at 
> any point you wish to render a form manually or create a compatible 
> alternative to Zend Form for your own needs this is all possible. It is also 
> possible to specify an alternative macro for individual form elements to 
> override the default - if you wish to do things slightly different for just 
> one form or just one element :)
> As a side note, we've also integrated Zend_Translate support into PHPTal and 
> created a number of Tales to support plural translations and rendering 
> various Zend elements such as Dates.
> Robert
> On 3 Aug 2010, at 09:34, Richard Dyce wrote:
>> Robert,
>> That sounds very interesting, I'll look forward to seeing it.
>> I've had a few private emails from people suggesting php pre-rendering with 
>> structures, or using Zend Forms. I thought I should make it clear that the 
>> reason that I'm not looking to go down that path is that that's where I've 
>> come from. (The framework I've been using has 'foxels' analagous to pixels, 
>> which are form elements that can be built using array specs, but which have 
>> renderers for html, xml and json.) This makes it really easy to create lots 
>> of forms where there aren't isn't the need for heavy single-form specific 
>> coding. The benefit I see of doing it this way is that it makes it easier to 
>> create highly complex one-off forms within the system using specific 
>> templates, but to have a generalised forms to hand for most of the rest... 
>> without having to change the backend logic.
>> Hope that's as clear as mud...
>> On 3 Aug 2010, at 08:39, Robert Goldsmith wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>> Well, we here at Namesco are working hard to get a release package together 
>>> for the Zend/PHPTal integration 'glue' we've developed for our own internal 
>>> codebase (which we've called ZTal) and this has full integration with 
>>> Zend_Form. As such it includes a large number of macros for rendering 
>>> different form elements - although, of course, they expect to be given a 
>>> Zend_Form object :) Even if you are not using Zend it should be reasonably 
>>> easy to re-use the macros :)
>>> The code is ready but the documentation is rather lacking so at a guess I'd 
>>> say it will be a few days before we release. I'll obviously let everyone 
>>> know when everything is live :)
>>> Robert
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