I disagree about your new-user 10 year oldâs approach to Linux. Granted that he would have a CLI close to his fingertips, he would probably favor what ever GUI is already resident (assuming there is one.)
This is my entire point. He can use Linux without opening a terminal window and typing bash commands. He would be able to do productive work meaningful to him, manage his files, play games or whatever, and not have to use the CLI at all to have a meaningful experience. His trauma may come about from crossing GUI environments such as going from GNOME to KDE, WinXP, or Mac OSX. Similar trauma happens to me when trying to learn a completely new GUI as what happened to a lot of Mac users when OSX came out. (strangely enough, OSX being BSD at heart, early version almost required an occasional trip to the terminal application and working on sh) I also started computing on CLIâs. Iâve had to deal with a teletype connected to a PDP-11, graduated to developing applications on R-DOS and AOL. I had to deal with a command prompt on the Apple II and early versions of MS-DOS. In almost every case, I would have to create scripts to manage my most frequently used work, test these scripts, re-write them, think hard about how to manage files, etcâ The entry of the original Mac was a god-send I couldnât afford. When Windows 2.1 came out, I invested immediately on a 20MB hard drive so that I could use it. It wasnât anywhere near as efficient as the Mac but it did allow me to use the PC more productively. Windows 3.1 was a bit better but I finally bought a Mac with a real GUI in the early 1990âs and havenât looked back. I was forced to go back to Windows since my current employer is standardized on W2K. Overall, I like the GUI well enough and my issue is with the underlying OS. I much prefer Gnome to Windows personally since itâs more customizable and has most of the same advantages. But GUI choice eventually boils down to personal preferences and initial experience. This is where the Open Source community has to wake up. CLIâs are easy to swith back and forth from because you always have to have a manual or help iption available. GUIâs are supposed to be intuitive and are learned heuristically (trial and error.) So if you want to capture the hearts of users, the Open Source Community will have to sell the idea of alternative GUIâs more than the concept of a better more secure kernel. Otherwise, Linux and other open source OSâs interest will remain in the server/developer market rather than the general user market. Gnome, KDE and other GUI environments are fully capable of allowing a rich user experience today. Itâs about time advocates start extolling that fact rather than concentrating on issues like kernel stability and security â not that these arenât important features â and the day may come where you can enter into any computer store in Manila and see a PC with a Gnome interface sitting next to whatever XP or OSX box happens to be in the Window. -----Original Message----- From: "Dean Michael C. Berris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Philippine Linux Users Group Mailing List <plug@lists.q-linux.com> Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 20:00:11 +0800 Subject: Re: [plug] Re: Linux trends in the Philippines Actually... If you strictly speak about the Linux community, you wouldn't really be dealing too much with a certain kind or group of people -- that's why it's so hard to actually develop Linux and other applications running on Linux that have to please/cater to a certain group of people. What I'm saying here is that while say someone who has no computer experience whatsoever (like a 10 year old using the computer for the first time) would start learning Linux and the CLI, then he would also have a hard time more or less adjusting to a fully GUI based environment like Windows. Conversely, a veteran Windows developer would be very uncomfortable dealing with tools like vi and emacs (CLI) which have very different bindings, beahviours and features. Like I have said before, strictly speaking when you talk about Linux, you talk about the kernel. So far the kernel has been outperforming the popular operating systems out there in terms of stability and reliability -- both subjective terms. Now if you're talking about all the other applications that run on top of Linux the kernel, then it's a very different discussion. To clear things up, when you're trying out something new, and you have preconceived notions about how something similar works, you'd have a very hard time comparing. It's like apples and oranges -- if you're trying out an orange for the first time and have been eating apples forever, you'd be more less tempted to say that "Hey, this tastes so different from an apple!". To add my $0.02 more, I've started learning the computer during the days of the "286" where the only operating system I knew was DOS. Now, I still do not feel comforatble with a GUI in front of me, and am as "productive" as a developer/administrator in CLI mode as in GUI mode (sometimes I prefer working in CLI mode than in GUI mode). Now in terms of document publishing, and graphics editing (which I seldom do), then it would be hard if not impossible to prepare a powerpoint presentation in CLI mode. It's just like tackling a problem with different approaches, and it all boils down to preference. Now, it's nobody's mandate to "make the Linux operating environment better than Windows/UNIX/Mac -- it's all just by choice". So as I see it, since the kernel has already been working fine for me and most of what I want to do, I don't feel compelled to improve it. As for the applications, if I feel that I can contribute to the development/improvement of this feature for MY personal satisfaction, then I just might contribute. Otherwise, there's no pressure for me to do so. Maybe that's the reason why it would be hard for something like a Linux distribution merely maintained by volunteers to get to a place where commercial solutions like Windows has already dominated. I didn't say it's impossible, but I did say it would be hard. Just my opinions. :D Ricky wrote: > Precisely my point. It's not that bash isn't a great tool with lots of useful > stuff. But I cannot expect a graphic designer or a salesman to worry about > using it. Average users are more interested in getting work done quickly. > They therefore need intuitive tools whose function can be guessed at or > learned through trial and error. While this may seem inefficient, it actually > produces results more quickly in practice that a more rigorous approach that > can be taken by reading about a particular bash command in the CLI. > > The point to a good GUI is to be a productivity layer for commonly used > tasks. The various GUI environments in in Linux are sophisticated enough > today to give WXP and MacOSX a run for their money (though hats-off to OSX > for having probably the best GUI ever designed.) > > So if Linux is to prosper with the non-hacker community (i.e. the rest of us) > developers must assume that the user will not want to invoke a CLI for common > tasks and to leave that to a SysAd or specialist user who needs to know this. > A user environment that can provide complete set of GUI tools will be easier > to sell. > > Linux has this today and user usage among the consuming public promoted if > public demonstrations and courses could be conducted without even mentioning > the existence of a CLI. > > Ricky > > -----Original Message----- > From: clair ching <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: Philippine Linux Users Group Mailing List <plug@lists.q-linux.com> > Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:56:46 +0800 > Subject: Re: [plug] Re: Linux trends in the Philippines > > Kutch: Supporting M$ piracy won't cut it =) We still have to give > people options. > > Ricky: In what you previously said: > "I realized that this is anathema to many Linux users. You're supposed > to know gcc and bash in order to use Linux. > What is happening is that in teaching Linux here with these features > as necessary parts to understanding means that a good many non-sysad > types will be turned-off." > > I only started using Linux in August of last year. I don't know GCC > and I just know a bit of BASH. It has been tough making time learning > some things on the CLI. Previously there has been a flurry of > messages concerning CLI and GUI (you could check the archives). I > think that for people who have just been introduced to Linux, one way > of encouraging them to learn to do things on the CLI is to show them > how powerful it is =) There are a lot of nifty things that one can do > on it. That way, they can be challenged to go beyond using the GUI. > Sooner or later they will be comfortable with it ;) But there are > other users who probably don't think they have to go beyond the GUI. > Well, I guess it's ok for starters, as you never could force people > into doing things =) > > > On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 22:34:15 +0800, Zak B. Elep <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>Indeed. Another instance of popular choice severely constrained by the >>lack of choice. And even when there are choices, most humans take the >>easy path of ignoring open knowledge in preference to laziness and/or >>ineptitude of FOSS given their current situation. >> > > So I guess it's still a matter of perspective =) So we have to tell > them the truth about FOSS so that they will be set free from their > current mindset ;) > > >>Same as the `diploma culture' most Filipinos adopt. Of course, by itself >>it isn't a bad thing, but we tend to stick to a particular >>side/brand/way even if we know its kinda wrong... > > > Stikcing to a brand that people are "sure of", is the more appropriate > statement, I think. People won't buy a new brand unless it has been > tried and tested and endorsed by so many others. Individual computer > users may find it easier to adopt FOSS because they are the ones who > will primarily be affected. In larger institutions and companies, they > have more things to consider, as was said somewhere in this thread. So > maybe sticking to a particular brand may not be inherently wrong... > Just boxes people in =( > > >>Having not the patience to learn another operating system while trying >>to understand the fundamentals of computer science is an uphill >>battle. Even if it isn't Linux, at least knowing the ins and outs, both >>practically and theoretically, of a few different operating systems >>should be, at the very least, emphasized in CS courses. > > In CS courses yes. And I suppose also in courses that are related to > it such as information management and information technology classes > =) > > >>>>probably this is also due to lack of competent instructors. If you'd >>> >>>Maybe that is another hindrance that is to be overcome. >> >>Which is probably best overcome once we have a better exposure of open >>documentation. Not only manuals and references, but intro texts and >>works into the philo of FOSS as well, that ought to be at the very least >>sold at a low price. > > > I guess that that this is something that has to be done so that people > won't be overwhelmed. I was overwhelmed myself when I got introduced > to Linux and FOSS in general. But intro texts and other documents have > helped me gain a bit more of understanding =) That is why I am > advocating the use of FOSS right now ;) > > > >>>>4. On the corporate side, moving to opensource is considered risky. In >>>>short, there is no one vendor to pin the blame on if anything goes >>>>wrong. ^_^ >>> >>>They think of migration, training people, etc. aside from whatever >>>they have to do when things go wrong. However, I think that the open >>>source community is wonderful because people help out each other when >>>things go wrong. Besides, I see that maintainers are updating people >>>on forums and mailing lists, etc. so there shouldn't be much >>>difficulty with that. :) >> >>Yes, there shouldn't be, as long as FOSS company promoters can give the >>company a very clear picture of what FOSS can and can do for >>them. Really, this is not so much a problem to the promoters as it >>should be to the movers of the company, as they need to be keen enough >>so they don't just jump to using/supporting FOSS when in time they won't >>be able to handle it... > > True. But people promoting FOSS also have a certain degree of > responsibility in how they help the company transition into using > FOSS, ne? =) > > >>>Maybe we should be more active in promoting initiatives with regards >>>to the usage of open source software ;) Incidentally, I was in SM >>>Carpark's Cyberone yesterday. One of the shops had a sign on their >>>walls which said that they install only Linux and Star Office. There >>>is a net cafe in Philcoa that plans to shift to open source soon. >> >>And had visited it. Very nice! There's also one in Harrison Plaza that >>has OpenOffice, though on Win98. > > At least it's OOo ;) Who knows? Maybe the next time you drop by > they'll be running on Linux :D > > >>They have some restricted shell running >>on top of Explorer (though I suspect very easy to break, given time) so >>I can't get Firefox or PuTTY, but there's Netscape and that's good >>enough. >> >>-- >>ZAK B. ELEP <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -- <http://zakame.spunge.org> >>1024D/FA53851D 1486 7957 454D E529 E4F1 F75E 5787 B1FD FA53 851D >>-- Running Debian GNU+Linux testing/unstable. GnuPG signed mail preferred. > > > -- Philippine Linux Users' Group (PLUG) Mailing List plug@lists.q-linux.com (#PLUG @ irc.free.net.ph) Official Website: http://plug.linux.org.ph Searchable Archives: http://marc.free.net.ph .. To leave, go to http://lists.q-linux.com/mailman/listinfo/plug .. Are you a Linux newbie? To join the newbie list, go to http://lists.q-linux.com/mailman/listinfo/ph-linux-newbie -- Philippine Linux Users' Group (PLUG) Mailing List plug@lists.q-linux.com (#PLUG @ irc.free.net.ph) Official Website: http://plug.linux.org.ph Searchable Archives: http://marc.free.net.ph . To leave, go to http://lists.q-linux.com/mailman/listinfo/plug . Are you a Linux newbie? To join the newbie list, go to http://lists.q-linux.com/mailman/listinfo/ph-linux-newbie
