>Claims made by people with a grudge...based entirely on emotion, >religious beliefs, etc, rather than on facts and logic.
(un)fortunately, we live in a day and age where access to information is such that no one has a good excuse not to have their facts straight - or if not facts, then well thought out reason. so far you've based your arguments on: -your personal experience with porn -your first hand knowledge of families that have used porn (which you at least admit isn't very useful data) -you spent 5 minutes googling and found some links about the industry that a bunch of other people link to -and your opinion that you think society is "just fine". so, yeah - i'd say that you could use a little a bit more facts and some logic to go with those emotional claims. ;-) like i said before, if you're going to make a pro-porn argument, at least do your homework first. it's nothing personal - but i just think it's important to get your facts straight before you bloviate. (hey - that rhymes!) oh, and i apologize for calling charles a predictable ass. that wasn't very nice of me. :-/ $.02 -josh > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Josh Hansen > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 5:32 PM > To: Provo Linux Users Group Mailing List > Subject: Re: [OT] Re: UVLUG presents Pete Ashdown on Open > Source, politics andgovernment *PLUS* an installfest! > > Grant Robinson wrote: > > On Feb 22, 2006, at 4:06 PM, Josh Hansen wrote: > > <snip> > > > >>I wasn't trying to make a pro-porn argument, > > > > > > Interesting. So saying that it's a big industry, society is > > functioning fine with it, etc., are not arguments saying > that porn is > > OK? > > Ok, fine, it was a pro-porn argument then. > > > So, if I said that lots of people get abortions and it > doesn't seem to > > harm the mother or society, would you say I was pro-life or > pro-choice? > > I would say you were pro-life if you felt that abortion > should be illegal, and pro-choice if you felt that women > should be allowed to choose. Since I don't think porn should > be illegal, I suppose I must be pro-porn. > > >> I was trying to argue that > >>basing your vote on a candidate's stance on pornography > doesn't make a > >>lot of sense, > > > > > > Sure it does. People can base their vote on whatever they > would like, > > be it the War in Iraq, social security, Homeland security, > tax reform, > > etc, etc. > > You can base your vote on whatever you want, sure, but that > doesn't mean that it makes sense. > > >>and I also added my opinion that porn is not harmful to society, > > > > > > But you're not pro-porn? > > > > I guess I am. > > > > >>without adding a lot of hard facts and statistics because I assumed > >>that nobody would care. > > > > > > If you are going to state an opinion that runs counter to > what other > > people have expressed, hard facts and statistics go a long > way towards > > proving that you may actually have a case. > > > > Forgive me for assuming that everyone else here had seen > figures on the size of the porn industry at some point in their lives. > > > > >> If you want to read past the first few lines of my > original post and > >>discuss the rest of it with me, please do, but any more of these > >>pointless spams from you will simply get you added to my blacklist. > > > > > > That _would_ be a shame. :) > > > >>Anyway, I rarely read slashdot, but from statistics I am > finding now > >>(on a lot of sites, but mainly from the same two sources, > >>http://internet-filter-review.toptenreviews.com/internet-por > nography- > >>statistics.html > >>and > http://www.familysafemedia.com/pornography_statistics.html, porn > >>is a 57 billion dollar industry worldwide, and 12 billion > in the US, > >>which is larger than the combined revenue of all professional > >>football, baseball and basketball franchises, and the > combined revenue > >>of ABC, CBS, and NBC. > > > > > > So just because an industry is big and brings in a lot of > money, it is > > a good industry? Is Microsoft a 'good' company just > because they have > > a large market share? What about Enron? They were the > darling of the > > energy industry? Were they a good company? The oil > industry is way > > larger than porn. Chevron alone brought in over 100 > Billion dollars > > last year. Is the oil industry a good industry? Is the > OPEC cartel a > > good organization? I believe that we should probably base > whether an > > industry or company is good or bad, good for society or harmful to > > society, on more than market cap or revenue. I am not necessarily > > saying that any of these companies are good or bad, just > that success > > and making money don't really correlate with how _harmful_ that > > business or industry is towards society or individuals. > > > > BTW, I would check some facts before using those as a basis for > > argument, as in 2005 NBC Universal brought in 3.1 billion > all on it's > > own, and the one website you quoted claimed the revenue for > all 3 was > > only 6 billion. The website you pulled that info from provided no > > information as to where _any_ of these stats came from. > > My point there was that with as large as the porn industry > is, and with the amount of people who indulge in pornography > out there, it can't be as harmful to society as Richard > Miller believes it is, because the vast majority of society > functions just fine. I wasn't exactly saying that porn is > good just because it's popular. > > As for the figures I stated, I searched Google for a few > minutes, and almost every page I found with statistics about > the size of the porn industry cited the two links I provided > as their own sources. I would definitely love to see some > more accurate numbers, if there are any. > > >>If such a large industry is so harmful to society, where is all the > >>harm? I know that some people like to blame rape and other sexual > >>abuse crimes, the divorce rate, etc on porn, but I don't > buy that, and > >>I haven't seen any information to convince me otherwise. > > > > > > You are free to believe whatever you want. I have seen statistics > > both ways. From the experiences of people I know, I believe that > > pornography can be _very_ destructive. If you believe otherwise, I > > would base it on more than just how much money an industry > rakes in. > > Tobacco companies make a killing too, but it's an > undisputed fact that > > people who smoke are _way_ more likely to develop lung cancer than > > those who don't. And yet people still buy cigarettes. I > once saw a > > guy who had lung cancer and whose lungs barely functioned (he was on > > oxygen) and could barely walk (he was in a motorized > scooter) driving > > down the sidewalk smoking a cigarette with the oxygen tube > in his nose. > > Just because people spend money on things does not in any > way mean > > that those things can't, won't, or don't harm them. > > > > Grant > > > > My own anecdotal experience would indicate to me that porn is > not destructive at all, because almost everyone that I know > and spend time with on a daily basis looks at pornography at > least on occasion, whether it's the DVD here and there, a > collection of magazines, websites, or links to porn or shock > pics on IRC. In case you're wondering how I know people look > at porn, it's not because we all get together and look at it > together, but because it's easy to gather through > conversations and other ways when you know someone well. In > my experience, people who aren't vehemently against porn > don't worry too much about hiding the fact that they enjoy it > now and then. But anyway, I have never known about a single > family destroyed by porn (or even slightly inconvenienced by > it). I have known of plenty of families torn apart by other > various things, but not porn. But forget my own experiences, > they don't matter in an argument anyway. I have read about > families destroyed by porn in the newspaper, usually it's a > prominent religious leader or someone like that who everyone > thought was a good guy, but who got busted with kiddy porn, > which is illegal already. The fact is, millions of people > all over the world are into porn, and for the vast majority > of them, it doesn't cause any problems. It probably does > contribute to the deterioration of an already unstable > individual in some cases, but those are exceptions, and we > don't need new, unenforceable laws to deal with them. > Basically, I think claims that the porn industry harms > society are no different than claims that violent videogames > harm children. > Claims made by people with a grudge (against porn, or violent > videogames), based entirely on emotion, religious beliefs, > etc, rather than on facts and logic. > > > /* > PLUG: http://plug.org, #utah on irc.freenode.net > Unsubscribe: http://plug.org/mailman/options/plug > Don't fear the penguin. > */ > /* PLUG: http://plug.org, #utah on irc.freenode.net Unsubscribe: http://plug.org/mailman/options/plug Don't fear the penguin. */
