Not exactly correct. I am not advocating that the current inhabitants be displaced in return to make room for the older. I am saying that the older inhabitants have the right to return to the land and live upon it according to their own laws... that current inhabitants don't have the right to bar them from lands. Specifically, I am saying that Israelis have no right to bar the land from Palestinians, nor to impose their laws upon the Palestinians. Nor do "Americans" have the right to hold Amerindians on reservations or to impose American law upon them.
John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Michael, I appreciate most of your writing...not all of it. Looks to me like a kind of racist (what I do not call racist!) imprint as "original", meaning "earlier" owners meaning "inhabitants" of a territory. All Europeans live on stolen property IN EUROPE, (not only in America), because ancestors stole land from earlier inhabitants all over human history and imposed always their rules on it - including upon the remnants of the earlier 'owners' (at least those whom they did not kill). I call it 'quasi racist', because it ackowledges 'ancestrial' right superseding the living people reality. I consider "humans" as the actual people, not the "heirs" of foggy and idolized ancient brutes. I try to think in terms of "WE are here, WE want to live and in this respect a community has the right to protect itself, no matter how scoudrelish the 'ancestors' acquired the land. Ancestors lived in another time, other morals, other sins. If we go back, back, and back, we eternalize the blood-revenge in a war of racist philosophy about 'ancestrial heritage and damage'. I will come back to more later John ----- Original Message ----- From: michael haaheim To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 6:09 AM Subject: Re: [PNEWS-L] No One Is Illegal To rephrase something... yes, the descendants of the original Amerindians should be given the right to reoccupy their ancestral lands, while living according to their laws. We are ALL OF US living on stolen lands. ALL who "own" lands in the US are in possession of STOLEN lands. According to the traditions of the original rightful inhabitants, land was not subject to ownership. It is not wrong for us to live also upon these lands, it is wrong that we enforce our laws upon those who were here first, and had the rightful claim. Those of European descent have NO RIGHT to enforce territorial laws upon others in the US. It is not correct to say that there are no illegal aliens. Better to say that the US has no moral right to impose such laws condemning aliens as illegal. John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hank, your 'attacking' style is losing logic. Ignorance? of course and I am aware of more and more what I don't know, the more I learn. You did not answer my quetion: do the decendants of the Amerindians have the 'right' to recapture Manhattan? It is the relevant question regarding the illigal Mexican workers to 'survive' (and claim their heritage in this country) beacuase the territory was historically "Mexican property" (I could add: rightfully, or not: Mexico had a Habsburg emperor, Maximilian, so Austria also could claim Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California?). Start tackling with history and the world is over. You get to 'travesties' of justice (your word). And I object to your tactical trick to invoke Nafta against me: I am no proponent of Nafta. Never was. Similarly I object to plant opinions (even words) into my writing, I wonder where and when did I express to equate survival with illegality? Did you read at all what I wrote? Or you just decided how to paraphrase somebodies well crafted different opinion? Such policy of yours is discrediting not only you, but also the 'causes' you represent.( "Does this guy have no rightful arguments?") I accept criticism if it is just and right. I fight back if I am attacked unjustly. And if you throw me out from your list my wife will send you a thankyou note for all those free hours I will be able to spend with her instead of reading PNEWS-L. John ----- Original Message ----- From: adar To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 7:35 PM Subject: Re: [PNEWS-L] No One Is Illegal The entire Southwestern U.S., was part of Mexico until the U.S. military invaded that sovereign nation in 1846 to FORCE the Mexican government to "sell" one-third of its territory for a paltry sum. IN essence, this was a theft. There are no absolutes John and your contention that Mexicans in what was and still should be their own territory are illegal is a travasty of justice which obviously you support. As for Donnella even thinking that immigrants are taking something away from her that is simply her lack of understanding what wealth these people bring with them and how much she is actually being ripped off by the ruling elites in her own country, not the Mexicans we have forced to come here to survive. If it a shame she can't see this - but for you John, it is simply ignorance that you equate their survival with illegality. What should be illegal is NAFTA which has caused death and suffering and capitalism for which it was meant to provide unjust enrichment to the rich. Unjust enrichment is a crime which goes beyond tort law for the evil inherent in it. Hank On Tue, 31 Jul 2007, John wrote: > Hank: > How long do you want to ride this ridiculous and fallse usage of words, > to mix up for the not-so-attentive gullible reader the term "illegal > alien" with "illegal human"? No human being is illegal, of course, all > have been created by the same physiological bio- function of a male > (sperm) and a female (egg), in utero or in vitro, which is Nature's > LEGAL way of human proliferation. You ride this term for arguing against > the NONLEGA entering to the US - the ILLEGAL penetration of our country. > Watch this: *LEGAL PERSONS INFILTRATE ILLEGALLY* and no sophism of yours > can change the meaning of this. So please, stop boring us with your > false interpretation of an immigrational problem into a philosophical > sophism! In the name of all, who understand the difference Jophn > ----- Original Message ----- > From: adar > To: [email protected] > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 12:59 AM > Subject: [PNEWS-L] No One Is Illegal > > > > I shall leave you with this thought which undoubtedly many of you will > find disagreement but some of you who are true progressives and humanists > and seek justice will agree with me. NO ONE IS ILLEGAL! If you can think > long enough to cut through the right wing wailing you will see the > legitimacy of opening the borders and declaring everyone welcome - just as > you will demand of your government enforcement of their labor laws and the > right for everyone to form unions - including undocumented workers. > > Immigration has been shaped by racism its entire history and is > manipulated by corporate America to ensure a plentiful supply of cheap > labor while using the fear of immigration to divide and rule the American > working-class while making war on unions. Meanwhile NAFTA - The North > American Free Trade Agreement have devastated Mexico's small farmer class > and forced them to look for work in the cities of the U.S., thanks to Bill > Clinton. > > BOTH Democratic and Republican administrations have passed more and more > draconian laws against undocumented workers as they whip up false > sentiment against people of color and exploit labor with their corporate > monopolies. This is Amerikkka. Death to Capitalism and to their > corporate proxy political parties. If the Democrats > don't impeach Bush, impeach the Democrats. > > "Borders serve only to divide people and > reinforce the power of capital over all workers." > > People before Profits! > > Later, > > Hank Roth > http://pnews.org/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. 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