Hey Regan! "Spot On"!
<Grin>! On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 4:29 PM, Regan Duffy <drob...@comcast.net> wrote: > Keith, now you've done it, confusing the poor little entitled victim with > facts and logic and not accepting the rantings, bordering on hysteria, > based purely on emotion as conclusive. Like I said, pearls cast before > swine. > > *Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID* > > > Keith In Tampa <keithinta...@gmail.com> wrote: > > You've thrown no one in jail, period. Nor do you speak for the conscience > of the American people. > > I've never claimed that our government was anything less than secular, it > is obviously a secular republican form of government. What I did say, and > what I and most all thoughtful Americans know, is that our system of > government, and our laws are based upon Judeo-Christian tenets and > principals. This is fact, and no matter how many Anti-American articles > from hate sites you choose to cut and paste, nothing will ever change that > fact/ > > On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 2:48 PM, plainolamerican < > plainolameri...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> spout all the quotes you want but it won't change the fact that the US >> government is secular and will not yield to religious myth believers like >> yourself. >> >> but hey ... go ahead and take a stand like Kim Davis ... we'll throw your >> ass in jail also. >> >> >> On Tuesday, November 17, 2015 at 1:08:29 PM UTC-6, KeithInTampa wrote: >> >>> On March 6, 1789, President John Adams called for a national day of >>> fasting and prayer for the country could "*call to mind our numerous >>> offenses against the most high God, confess them before Him with the >>> sincerest penitence, implore his pardoning mercy, through the Great >>> Mediator and Redeemer, for our past transgression, and that through the >>> grace of His Holy Spirit, we may be disposed and enabled to yield a more >>> suitable obedience. . ."* >>> >>> A few other quotes which demonstrate Adams’ thoughts about Jesus are >>> below. >>> >>> On April 18, 1775, a British soldier ordered him, John Hancock, and >>> others to “disperse in the name of George the Sovereign King of England. >>> Adams responded to him: >>> >>> *“We recognize no sovereign but God, and no king but Jesus!”* >>> >>> In an October 13, 1789 address to the military, he said: >>> >>> *"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with >>> human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, >>> revenge, or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution >>> as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral >>> and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any >>> other."* >>> >>> In a letter to Thomas Jefferson dated June 28, 1813, Adams said: >>> >>> “*The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence >>> were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then >>> believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity >>> are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.*” >>> –*John >>> Adams; June 28, 1813, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.* >>> >>> *"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for >>> their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the >>> precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to >>> temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity >>> towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty >>> God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." **Diary >>> and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9* >>> >>> *=====* >>> >>> *"I now offer you the outline of the plan they have suggested. Let an >>> association be formed to be denominated 'The Christian Constitutional >>> Society,' its object to be first: The support of the Christian religion. >>> Second: The support of the United States."* >>> *Alexander Hamilton, 1802 To John Baynard* >>> >>> ===== >>> >>> *"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a >>> nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a >>> conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift >>> of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I >>> tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice >>> cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change >>> of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by >>> Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side >>> with us in that event." **Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of >>> Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.* >>> >>> *=====* >>> >>> "*While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and >>> soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of >>> religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our >>> highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian.*" --*The >>> Writings of George Washington, pp. 342-3* >>> >>> *=====* >>> >>> *The plan of education proposed is anti-Christian, and therefore >>> repugnant to the law....The purest principles of morality are to be taught. >>> Where are they found? Whoever searches for them must go to the source from >>> which a Christian man derives his faith -- the Bible...There is an >>> obligation to teach what the Bible alone can teach, viz. a pure system of >>> morality...* >>> >>> *Both in the Old and New Testaments [religious instruction's] importance >>> is recognized. In the Old it is said, 'Thou shalt diligently teach them to >>> thy children,' and the New, 'Suffer the little children to come unto me and >>> forbid them not...' No fault can be found with Girard for wishing a marble >>> college to bear his name forever, but it is not valuable unless it has a >>> fragrance of Christianity about it.* >>> >>> The First Amendment, however, does not say that in every respect there >>> shall be a separation of Church and State. Rather, it studiously defines >>> the manner, the specific ways, in which there shall be no concert or union >>> or dependency one on the other. *Vidal v. Girard's Executors*, 43 U.S. >>> 126,132 (1844). >>> >>> *Christianity...is not to be maliciously and openly reviled and >>> blasphemed against, to the annoyance of believers or the injury of the >>> public...It is unnecessary for us, however, to consider the establishment >>> of a school or college, for the propagation of...Deism, or any other form >>> of infidelity.* >>> *Such a case is not to be presumed to exist in a Christian country...Why >>> may not laymen instruct in the general principles of Christianity as well >>> as ecclesiastics...* >>> >>> *And we cannot overlook the blessings, which such [lay] men by their >>> conduct, as well as their instructions, may, nay must, impart to their >>> youthful pupils. Why may not the Bible, and especially the New Testament, >>> without note or comment, be read and taught as a divine revelation in the >>> [school] -- its general precepts expounded, its evidences explained and its >>> glorious principles of morality inculcated?...* >>> >>> *Where can the purest principles of morality be learned so clearly or so >>> perfectly as from the New Testament?* >>> >>> *It is also said, and truly, **that the Christian religion is a part of >>> the common law of Pennsylvania... **Id.* (Emphasis Added) *(By >>> Justice Storey) Vidal v. Girard's Executors, 43 U.S. 126,132-133 (1844). * >>> >>> >>> ====== >>> >>> >>> *That is the common sense of the matter. Otherwise the state and >>> religion would be aliens to each other -- hostile, suspicious, and even >>> unfriendly. **Zorach v. Clauson*, (1952) >>> >>> ========= >>> >>> >>> *“Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and >>> embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it >>> should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization >>> and our institutions are emphatically Christian.* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any >>> legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people. This is >>> historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present >>> hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation.The commission to >>> Christopher Columbus...[recited] that 'it is hoped that by God's assistance >>> some of the continents and islands in the ocean will be discovered...'The >>> first colonial grant made to Sir Walter Raleigh in 1584...and the grant >>> authorizing him to enact statutes for the government of the proposed colony >>> provided that they 'be not against the true Christian faith...'The first >>> charter of Virginia, granted by King James I in 1606...commenced the grant >>> in these words: '...in propagating of Christian religion to such people as >>> yet live in darkness...'Language of similar import may be found in the >>> subsequent charters of that colony...in 1609 and 1611; and the same is true >>> of the various charters granted to the other colonies. In language more or >>> less emphatic is the establishment of the Christian religion declared to be >>> one of the purposes of the grant. The celebrated compact made by the >>> Pilgrims in the Mayflower, 1620, recites: 'Having undertaken for the Glory >>> of God, and advancement of the Christian faith...a voyage to plant the >>> first colony in the northern parts of Virginia...'The Fundamental Orders of >>> Connecticut, under which a provisional government was instituted in >>> 1638-1639, commence with this declaration: 'And well knowing where a people >>> are gathered together, the Word of God requires that to maintain the peace >>> and union...there should be an orderly and decent government established >>> according to God...to maintain and preserve the liberty and purity of the >>> Gospel of our Lord Jesus which we now profess...of the said Gospel [which] >>> is now practiced amongst us.'In the Charter of Privileges granted by >>> William Penn to the province of Pennsylvania, in 1701, it is recited: >>> '...No people can be truly happy, though under the greatest enjoyment of >>> civil liberties, if abridged of...their religious profession and >>> worship...'Coming nearer to the present time, the Declaration of >>> Independence recognizes the presence of the Divine in human affairs in >>> these words:'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are >>> created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain >>> unalienable rights...appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the >>> rectitude of our intentions...And for the support of this Declaration, with >>> firm reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to >>> each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor.'We find >>> everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth...because of a general >>> recognition of this truth [that we are a Christian nation], the question >>> has seldom been presented to the courts...There is no dissonance in these >>> declarations. There is a universal language pervading them all, having one >>> meaning; they affirm and reaffirm that this is a religious nation. These >>> are not individual sayings, declarations of private persons: they are >>> organic utterances; they speak the voice of the entire people.While because >>> of a general recognition of this truth the question has seldom been >>> presented to the courts, yet we find that in Updegraph v. the Commonwealth, >>> it was decided that, Christianity, general Christianity, is, and always has >>> been, a part of the common law...not Christianity with an established >>> church...but Christianity with liberty of conscience to all men.And in The >>> People v. Ruggles, Chancellor Kent, the great commentator on American law, >>> speaking as Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of New York, said: 'The >>> people of this State, in common with the people of this country, profess >>> the general doctrines of Christianity, as the rule of their faith and >>> practice...We are a Christian people, and the morality of the country is >>> deeply engrafted upon Christianity, and not upon the doctrines or worship >>> of those impostors [other religions].'And in the famous case of Vidal v. >>> Girard's Executors, this court observed: 'It is also said, and truly, that >>> the Christian religion is a part of the common law...'If we pass beyond >>> these matters to a view of American life as expressed by its laws, its >>> business, its customs and its society, we find everywhere a clear >>> recognition of the same truth. Among other matters note the following: The >>> form of oath universally prevailing, concluding with an appeal to the >>> Almighty; the custom of opening sessions of all deliberative bodies and >>> most conventions with prayer; the prefatory words of all will, 'In the name >>> of God, amen', the laws respecting the observance of the Sabbath, with the >>> general cessation of all secular business, and the closing of courts, >>> legislatures, and other similar public assemblies on that day; the churches >>> and church organizations which abound in every city, town and hamlet; the >>> multitude of charitable organizations existing everywhere under Christian >>> auspices; the gigantic missionary associations, with general support, and >>> aiming to establish Christian missions in every quarter of the globe.These, >>> and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial >>> declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian >>> nation...we find everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth.The >>> happiness of a people and the good order and preservation of civil >>> government essentially depend upon piety, religion and morality.Religion, >>> morality, and knowledge [are] necessary to good government, the >>> preservation of liberty, and the happiness of mankind.” **Church of >>> the Holy Trinity v. United States,* (1892) >>> >>> >>> *Issued by President George Washington, at the request of Congress, on >>> October 3, 1789* >>> >>> *By the President of the United States of America, a Proclamation.* >>> >>> *Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of >>> Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly >>> to implore His protection and favor; and—Whereas both Houses of Congress >>> have, by their joint committee, requested me “to recommend to the people of >>> the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed >>> by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of >>> Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to >>> establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:”* >>> >>> *Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26th day of >>> November next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service >>> of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the >>> good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in >>> rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and >>> protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a >>> nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favor, able >>> interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late >>> war; for the great degree of tranquillity, union, and plenty which we have >>> since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been >>> enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and >>> happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted; for the >>> civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we >>> have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and, in general, for all >>> the great and various favors which He has been pleased to confer upon us.* >>> >>> *And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and >>> supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations, and beseech Him to >>> pardon our national and other trangressions; to enable us all, whether in >>> public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties >>> properly and punctually; to render our National Government a blessing to >>> all the people by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and >>> constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed; to >>> protect and guide all sovereigns and nations (especially such as have shown >>> kindness to us), and to bless them with good governments, peace, and >>> concord; to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, >>> and the increase of science among them and us; and, generally, to grant >>> unto all mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as He alone knows to >>> be best.* >>> >>> *Given under my hand at the City of New York the third day of October in >>> the year of our Lord 1789.* >>> George Washington >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 12:50 PM, plainolamerican <plainol...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> No amount of revisionist history is going to change what we are as a >>> Nation >>> --- >>> back at you. >>> >>> Benjamin Franklin >>> >>> Although Franklin received religious training, his nature forced him to >>> rebel against the irrational tenets of his parents Christianity. His >>> Autobiography revels his skepticism, “My parents had given me betimes >>> religions impressions, and I received from my infancy a pious education in >>> the principles of Calvinism. But scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of >>> age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I >>> found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of >>> Revelation itself. >>> >>> “. . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that >>> they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; >>> for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared >>> to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a through >>> Deist.” >>> >>> In an essay on “Toleration,” Franklin wrote: >>> >>> “If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in >>> Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been >>> persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians >>> thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one >>> another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution >>> in the Romish church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. These found it >>> wrong in the Bishops, but fell into the same practice themselves both here >>> [England] and in New England.” >>> >>> Dr. Priestley, an intimate friend of Franklin, wrote of him: >>> >>> “It is much to be lamented that a man of Franklin’s general good >>> character and great influence should have been an unbeliever in >>> Christianity, and also have done as much as he did to make others >>> unbelievers” (Priestley’s Autobiography) >>> >>> Thomas Paine >>> >>> This freethinker and author of several books, influenced more early >>> Americans than any other writer. Although he held Deist beliefs, he wrote >>> in his famous The Age of Reason: >>> >>> “I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the >>> Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Protestant church, nor by any >>> church that I know of. My own mind is my church. “ >>> >>> “Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no >>> more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to >>> reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called >>> Christianity. “ >>> The U.S. Constitution >>> >>> The most convincing evidence that our government did not ground itself >>> upon Christianity comes from the very document that defines it– the United >>> States Constitution. >>> >>> If indeed our Framers had aimed to found a Christian republic, it would >>> seem highly unlikely that they would have forgotten to leave out their >>> Christian intentions in the Supreme law of the land. In fact, nowhere in >>> the Constitution do we have a single mention of Christianity, God, Jesus, >>> or any Supreme Being. There occurs only two references to religion and they >>> both use exclusionary wording. The 1st Amendment’s says, “Congress shall >>> make no law respecting an establishment of religion. . .” and in Article >>> VI, Section 3, “. . . no religious test shall ever be required as a >>> qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.” >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson interpreted the 1st Amendment in his famous letter to >>> the Danbury Baptist Association in January 1, 1802: >>> >>> “I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American >>> people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting >>> an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ >>> thus building a wall of separation between church and State.” >>> >>> Some Religious activists try to extricate the concept of separation >>> between church and State by claiming that those words do not occur in the >>> Constitution. Indeed they do not, but neither does it exactly say “freedom >>> of religion,” yet the First Amendment implies both. >>> >>> As Thomas Jefferson wrote in his Autobiography, in reference to the >>> Virginia Act for Religious Freedom: >>> >>> “Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan >>> of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting >>> “Jesus Christ,” so that it would read “A departure from the plan of Jesus >>> Christ, the holy author of our religion;” the insertion was rejected by the >>> great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle >>> of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, >>> the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.” >>> >>> James Madison, perhaps the greatest supporter for separation of church >>> and State, and whom many refer to as the father of the Constitution, also >>> held similar views which he expressed in his letter to Edward Livingston, >>> 10 July 1822: >>> >>> “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past >>> one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater >>> purity, the less they are mixed together.” >>> >>> Today, if ever our government needed proof that the separation of church >>> and State works to ensure the freedom of religion, one only need to look at >>> the plethora of Churches, temples, and shrines that exist in the cities and >>> towns throughout the United States. Only a secular government, divorced >>> from religion could possibly allow such tolerant diversity. >>> The Declaration of Independence >>> >>> Many Christians who think of America as founded upon Christianity >>> usually present the Declaration as “proof.” The reason appears obvious: the >>> document mentions God. However, the God in the Declaration does not >>> describe Christianity’s God. It describes “the Laws of Nature and of >>> Nature’s God.” This nature’s view of God agrees with deist philosophy but >>> any attempt to use the Declaration as a support for Christianity will fail >>> for this reason alone. >>> [image: Article XI from the Treaty of Tripoli] >>> <http://www.earlyamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/titleXI.jpg> >>> >>> Article XI from the Treaty of Tripoli >>> >>> Article XI from the Treaty of Tripoli >>> >>> More significantly, the Declaration does not represent the law of the >>> land as it came before the Constitution. The Declaration aimed at >>> announcing their separation from Great Britain and listed the various >>> grievances with the “thirteen united States of America.” The grievances >>> against Great Britain no longer hold, and we have more than thirteen >>> states. Today, the Declaration represents an important historical document >>> about rebellious intentions against Great Britain at a time before the >>> formation of our independent government. Although the Declaration may have >>> influential power, it may inspire the lofty thoughts of poets, and judges >>> may mention it in their summations, it holds no legal power today. Our >>> presidents, judges and policemen must take an oath to uphold the >>> Constitution, but never to the Declaration of Independence. >>> >>> Of course the Declaration depicts a great political document, as it >>> aimed at a future government upheld by citizens instead of a religious >>> monarchy. It observed that all men “are created equal” meaning that we all >>> come inborn with the abilities of life, liberty and the pursuit of >>> happiness. That “to secure these rights, governments are instituted among >>> men.” The Declaration says nothing about our rights secured by >>> Christianity, nor does it imply anything about a Christian foundation. >>> Treaty of Tripoli >>> >>> Unlike governments of the past, the American Fathers set up a government >>> divorced from religion. The establishment of a secular government did not >>> require a reflection to themselves about its origin; they knew this as an >>> unspoken given. However, as the U.S. delved into international affairs, few >>> foreign nations knew about the intentions of America. For this reason, an >>> insight from at a little known but legal document written in the late 1700s >>> explicitly reveals the secular nature of the United States to a foreign >>> nation. Officially called the “Treaty of peace and friendship between the >>> United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary,” >>> most refer to it as simply the Treaty of Tripoli. In Article 11, it states: >>> [image: Joel Barlow, U.S. Consul General of Algiers] >>> <http://www.earlyamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/barlow.jpg> >>> >>> Joel Barlow, U.S. Consul General of Algiers >>> >>> Joel Barlow, U.S. Consul General of Algiers >>> Copyright National Portait Gallery Smithsonian Institution/Art Resource >>> NY >>> >>> “As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense >>> founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of >>> enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as >>> the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against >>> any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising >>> from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony >>> existing between the two countries.” >>> >>> The preliminary treaty began with a signing on 4 November, 1796 (the end >>> of George Washington’s last term as president). Joel Barlow, the American >>> diplomat served as counsel to Algiers and held responsibility for the >>> treaty negotiations. Barlow had once served under Washington as a chaplain >>> in the revolutionary army. He became good friends with Paine, Jefferson, >>> and read Enlightenment literature. Later he abandoned Christian orthodoxy >>> for rationalism and became an advocate of secular government. Barlow, along >>> with his associate, Captain Richard O’Brien, et al, translated and modified >>> the Arabic version of the treaty into English. From this came the added >>> Amendment 11. Barlow forwarded the treaty to U.S. legislators for approval >>> in 1797. Timothy Pickering, the secretary of state, endorsed it and John >>> Adams concurred (now during his presidency), sending the document on to the >>> Senate. The Senate approved the treaty on June 7, 1797, and officially >>> ratified by the Senate with John Adams signature on 10 June, 1797. All >>> during this multi-review process, the wording of Article 11 never raised >>> the slightest concern. The treaty even became public through its >>> publication in The Philadelphia Gazette on 17 June 1797. >>> >>> So here we have a clear admission by the United States that our >>> government did not found itself upon Christianity. Unlike the Declaration >>> of Independence, this treaty represented U.S. law as all treaties do >>> according to the Constitution (see Article VI, Sect. 2). >>> >>> Although the Christian exclusionary wording in the Treaty of Tripoli >>> only lasted for eight years and no longer has legal status, it clearly >>> represented the feelings of our Founding Fathers at the beginning of the >>> U.S. government. >>> Common Law >>> <http://www.earlyamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/treatyback.jpg> >>> >>> ... >> >> -- >> -- >> Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. >> For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum >> >> * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ >> * It's active and moderated. 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