Very interesting perspective Rigs, and right on the money. You nailed this one on the head, despite Biff's (and my) rantings.....
On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 6:41 AM, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > "Wishful thinking" of what, if I may comment. Since the demise of the > Latin Liturgy of the RCC, it has been interesting to watch the > "adjustments" of Catholics to society and how it impacts their lives/ > decisions. The winner is moral relativism and a sucking up of popular > psychology, trends and/or a rebelion against real or imagined > repressions imposed by the Old Church/parents. Many of my > contemporaries left the Church though some kept the toe of their Faith > in the door to honor the tradition of Sacraments. Others kept/keep > their distance to cope with their choices or those of their children. > Still others, a younger group I hung out with for decades while > raising my last two children and perhaps your age, as well, have > completely remade the RCC into their own fantasy version and are quite > derisive in their comments about Rome and their Bishops, however they > are generous in tithes, attendance and volunteerism but some of this > springs from a duty of wealth and noblesse oblige of financialsuccess/ > Materialism. Worldly Catholics are sure they are thin enough to pass > though the "eye of the Needle". And the Church has always loved > donors, regardless. Always a conflict when examining the history of > the RCC is the tension between Faith and obvious/certain flaws of > human management of the Divine- Wm. Manchester has a short, scathing > book on the subject. Sin and virtue are just words that attempt to > cope with the struggles of/for character and that is a very old > struggle- the Greeks also wrangled with it in Pagan terms/explanation > (Aristotle, etc.). So, of course, contemporary Catholics would vote > for Obama. > > On Apr 3, 12:07 pm, Biff <[email protected]> wrote: > > I go to Catholic Church almost every week, you may as well also, but > > if you think American Catholics are in step with the bishops. I don't > > agree. In the two parishes here it's probably 50/50 on the question of > > abortion. The voting patterns of American Catholics testify to that > > (actually 55-45 voted Democratic). In other words your assessment that > > Obama is "out of line" with Americans and American Catholics is just > > wishful thinking. > > > > "Catholic Vote Swings Democratic in Midterm Elections > > > > by Jeff Diamant > > Religion News Service > > > > Catholics, who compose a massive 67 million-person slice of the > > electorate, favored Democrats in Tuesday's election by 55 percent to > > 45 percent, according to National Election Pool exit polls. > > > > That's a marked difference from 2004, when President Bush, a > > Republican United Methodist, won 52 percent of the Catholic vote and > > Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., a Catholic, received 47 percent. > > > > Catholic voting patterns varied by state, but the overall shift helped > > Democrats in several big states like Pennsylvania and Ohio, according > > to John Green, a senior fellow at Washington's Pew Forum on Religion > > and Public Life. > > > > For much of the 20th century, American Catholics were loyal Democrats, > > but in recent elections their voting patterns have been largely > > indistinguishable from the general population. > > > > And for the last quarter-century, conservative Catholics and white > > evangelicals have increasingly voted Republican, making opposition to > > abortion and same-sex marriage their top political issues. > > > > Yet since the 2004 presidential election, liberal religious groups > > have worked to get the Catholic vote back to the Democratic Party, > > using the issues of poverty, health care and environmentalism as ways > > to get voters' attention. A liberal group called Catholics in Alliance > > for the Common Good credits those efforts for the shifts reflected in > > Tuesday's voting." > > > > On Mar 31, 9:16 am, Keith In Tampa <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Thank you for sharing this article by Tom Mattzie Biff. > > > > > First, I would be opposed to Notre Dame rescinding the offer made to > > > President Obama inviting him to speak at Notre Dame's commencement > > > ceremonies in May. Despite my opposition to most all of President > Obama's > > > policies, and my questioning his legitimacy as the president because of > the > > > constitutionality of his presidency, President Obama is still the > President > > > of the United States, and should be afforded the respect of the office > of > > > President. > > > > > If President Obama had any common decency, common sense, or moral > fortitude, > > > President Obama would personally decline the offer, being that > > > the fundamental tenets of Notre Dame and Catholicism is in direct > contrast > > > to his policies and agenda. > > > > > Where Mr. Mattzie gets his belief that there is some "Republican > operative > > > in Right Wing Groups that founded the group attacking Notre Dame is > asinine, > > > and a typical far left, radical extremist ploy. The fact is, that the > > > United States Conference of Catholic Bishops has previously called for > > > Catholic institutions to shun those political figures who act “in > defiance > > > of our fundamental moral principles”: > > > > >http://www.usccb.org/bishops/catholicsinpoliticallife.shtml > > > > > There is a large backlash from student groups and student unions at > Notre > > > Dame who are opposed to President Obama's appearance: > > > > > "Notre Dame Student Groups Denounce University's Choice for > Commencement > > > Speech" : > > > > >http://www.ndresponse.com/press.html > > > > > There is a large backlash among Catholics in general. The Bishop that > is > > > head of the Catholic Diocese in South Bend Indiana has refused to > attend, as > > > well as a significant amount of dignitaries who are Catholic. Just as > > > important, the Catholic community is upset with the decision by Notre > Dame: > > > > > > http://content.usatoday.com/communities/religion/post/2009/03/64571525/1 > > > > > What Mr. Mattzie fails to realize, is that it is he, and the Democrat > Party > > > that are out of touch with Americans and our Nation. Mr. Mattzie's > > > partisan statement that, > > > > > "Right-wing institutes and non-profits that seek to influence > protestant > > > churches and Judaism. Their goal is to undermine religious social > thought > > > that might tilt things towards progressive policies rather than the > > > now-failed conservative policies." > > > > > clearly shows that Mr. Mattzie is out-of-touch with not only his > faith, > > > but with the rest of Americans. I would challenge Mr. Mattzie, as well > as > > > you Biff, to name, the "great and large swath of Catholic teaching(s)" > that > > > Mr. Mattzie references, which he believes President Obama supports. > > > > > There are none. The Democrat Party, as well as President Obama are out > of > > > touch with America, as they are clearly seeing and beginning to > understand. > > > > > On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 9:34 AM, Biff <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > ....."This is an effort by a small cabal of ultra-conservative > > > > partisans to separate Catholicism from its calling for social and > > > > economic justice and peace. A Republican operative who has > > > > simultaneous roles at other Right-Wing groups founded the group > > > > attacking Notre Dame. > > > > > > There are similar efforts is about the giant fights in Washington > right now > > > > over the > > > > economy, health care and the future of our planet. > > > > > > These Obama and Notre Dame critics are not speaking for a serious > > > > number of the tens of millions of American Catholics who voted for > > > > Barack Obama--nor even probably most of those who voted for John > > > > McCain. > > > > > > As an alumnus of Notre Dame (Class of 1997 and one-time class > > > > president) who has gone on to a career in Democratic and progressive > > > > politics I am proud that my alma mater is welcoming our president. > > > > > > There is no doubt that Notre Dame, as a Catholic institution, will > > > > disagree with the president on specific issues like abortion. But > > > > there is a great and large swath of Catholic teaching that addresses > > > > policies for people who are poor, sick, aged, immigrants, those with > > > > disabilities, war enemies and those in prison. These attacks on Notre > > > > Dame are an attack on Catholic social teachings." > > > > > > Tom Mattzie > > > > > > On Mar 30, 8:27 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > It will be interesting to see if Notre Dame shucks Obama as a > > > > > Commencement speaker/ recipient of an an honorary law degree in the > > > > > face of rising opposition. We know Obama's "buck" is continuous- > where > > > > > does the moral position of a faith turn into loose change? > > > > > > > On Mar 30, 7:38 pm, Jim Willis <[email protected] > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > The straw dog put forth by the leftist sadist loons is that, > “abiding > > > > > > solely within their ranks” is compassion for minorities, the > oppressed > > > > > > and disenfranchised. Though; this beguiles their absolute mission > to > > > > > > simply prostitute these groups in a quest to abolish the > religious > > > > > > underpinnings this country was founded upon. Karl Marx once said, > > > > > > “Religion is the opiate of the masses”. It has been the ardent > > > > > > ambition of liberal progressives to detoxify America of all > religious, > > > > > > “opiates” and to remove the moral handrails of the huddled > masses. > > > > > > > > Prior to the Roe V. Wade decision of 1973 progressives denied a > > > > > > religious or political perspective postulation on the subject of > > > > > > abortion. Their claim, “at that time” was that abortion was a > > > > > > constitutional issue, not a social conundrum to be left to the > sway of > > > > > > the electorate over its properly elected representatives. And; > thanks > > > > > > to a legislative Supreme Court, a finding of a general right to > > > > > > privacy in the constitution, “where ones does not exist”, > emanations > > > > > > of penumbras along with a complete adulteration of our binding > > > > > > document; the right to an abortion became the law of the land, > “though > > > > > > not one citizen voted for it”. > > > > > > > > Then; before the ink had dried on the courts opinion, lying > leftists > > > > > > leapt into action, “belying their true aspiration” by reversing > > > > > > previous posits on post conception as a legal argument and > > > > > > diametrically bemused that the slaughter of the un-born, “AK.A. > > > > > > Choice” is Social-Political speech. Expanding that vein the Neo- > > > > > > Leftists concluded that religious organizations espousing anti- > > > > > > abortion sentiments need lose their tax exempt tax status for > > > > > > exhibiting political preference. This tact being akin to Jeffrey > > > > > > Dahmer first saying, “I only killed them to eat them” and then > saying, > > > > > > “I only ate them because they were dead”. > > > > > > > > To this very day, lawsuits are worming their way throughout our > courts > > > > > > as the ACLU, “the tip of the lefts spear” challenges the tax > exempt > > > > > > status of the Catholic church because of their anti-abortion > stance. > > > > > > It was never about abortion to these heathen hedonists. It was > always > > > > > > an attack on religion. > > > > > > > > This isn’t a new phenomenon. The Nazi Socialists that encompass > our > > > > > > enemies on the left have been on the attack against religion for > at > > > > > > least a hundred years; whether it is their pursuit of Darwinism, > > > > > > removing the bible from our classrooms, public squares and > courtrooms > > > > > > to nativity scenes, crosses and a devilish zeal to belittle > religious > > > > > > moorings in our pop culture. > > > > > > > > Latest in the Lilliputian Leftists quiver is the rear attack; > “pardon > > > > > > the pun” for the establishment of gay marriage. Their quest to > > > > > > legitimize gay marriage has little to do with gay rights, gay > marriage > > > > > > or ass-less chaps. Their intent, their desire, their holy grail > is to > > > > > > standardize gay marriage as the norm, the law of > > > > ... > > > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
