(Breally..no kidding..:))..
(Bim so glad u have done ur instant research..anyway, a copy paste from some
(Buncertain conversation..with less of data will lead u to lack of knowledge
(Band little understanding abt the real issue..., so study more and be more
(Banalitical without prejudice will help u to have the right perceptive..,
(Bactually it's very hard to be sharp, objective and just...especially if we
(Bhave some beliefs based on accusation-subjective teachings and it will lead
(Bto to another deception ,some beliefs based on blur ground..so be careful
(Bfor what u believe..:))..
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B gembong kidil
(B
(B <[EMAIL PROTECTED] To:
([email protected]
(B o.com> cc:
(B
(B Sent by: Subject: Re: Kok Orang Kristen
(Byang Pusing? - Re:
(B [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ppiindia] Re: Kontroversi
(Bshalat Bahasa Indonesia
(B ups.com
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B 05/10/2005 03:44
(B
(B PM
(B
(B Please respond to
(B
(B ppiindia
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B
(BIs it safe if I say I have done some research$B!D(Band I ended up with what I
(Bbelief today$B!D(B.
(BPerhaps it is you that should do research$B!D(B.starting by reading URL that I
(Bjust sent in my previous email
(B
(BWD
(BCarla Annamarie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
(B
(Bmy suggestion..
(Bpls doing research, read all the accurate data, combine with the
(Bfacts..especially when the subject which abt religion and scriptures...bcs
(Bperhaps u will get mislead and misinform...
(B
(B
(Bjust a thought
(BCarla
(B
(B
(B
(B gembong kidil
(B
(B <[EMAIL PROTECTED] To:
([email protected]
(B o.com> cc:
(B
(B Sent by: Subject: Re: Kok Orang
(BKristen yang Pusing? - Re:
(B [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ppiindia] Re: Kontroversi
(Bshalat Bahasa Indonesia
(B ups.com
(B
(B
(B
(B 05/10/2005 03:16
(B
(B PM
(B
(B Please respond to
(B
(B ppiindia
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B
(Biya nih....saya cuma bisa meng-copy dan paste apa yang saya baca...:))
(Btapi dari sana saya belajar untuk tahu mana yang hak...
(B
(BCarla Annamarie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
(B
(Bjadi cuma copy paste aja...:))...no wonder..:))..
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B gembong kidil
(B
(B <[EMAIL PROTECTED] To:
([email protected]
(B o.com> cc:
(B
(B Sent by: Subject: Re: Kok Orang
(BKristen yang Pusing? - Re:
(B [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ppiindia] Re: Kontroversi
(Bshalat Bahasa Indonesia
(B ups.com
(B
(B
(B
(B 05/10/2005 03:02
(B
(B PM
(B
(B Please respond to
(B
(B ppiindia
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B
(Bsaya sampaikan lebih dari sekedar pertanyaan jelas.....
(Bberikut isi dialog antara antonius widuri (kristen) dengan kyai Bahaudin
(BMudhari (islam) silahkan klik situs berikut :
(Bhttp://www.geocities.com/pujangga1/dialog.htm
(B
(B
(BCarla Annamarie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
(B
(B
(B
(B"Ketika Yesus memulai pekerjaannya, la berumur kira-kira tiga puluh tahun
(Bdan Dia (menurut anggapan orang) adalah anak Yusuf, anak Eli." (Lukas
(B3:231)
(B
(B========
(BPertama yg mau saya katakan : ayat yg dikutip tdk valid baik dari isi dan
(Basalnya.
(BTdk ada Lukas 3:231.
(B
(B
(BDalam "manuskrip" Injil Lukas "yang lebih kuno" tidak terdapat kalimat
(B"(menurut anggapan orang)".
(B================
(BMalah ayat yg anda kutip tdk ada dlm Injil Lukas "versi yg lebih kuno
(Bmaupun yg baru".
(B
(B
(B
(BSebenarnya ini hanya pekerjaan penerjemah Injil yang merasa bahwa tanpa
(Badanya tambahan (penjelasan) yang asing ini, dikhawatirkan "domba-domba
(Bkecil" yang belum kuat benar imannya; akan tergelincir dalam keyakinannya,
(Bbahwa Yusuf si tukang kayu itulah bapak yang sebenarnya dari Yesus. Dengan
(Balasan itulah, mereka memberikan tambahan penjelasan pribadi dan diberi
(Bkurung agar jangan sampai terjadi kesalah-pahaman.
(B=================
(BIman tumbuh dan berkembang krn rahmat Tuhan, tidak perlu takut kuat atau
(Btdk.
(BMasalahnya cuma satu : AYATNYA TDK ADA!!!
(B
(Bkalau mau berandai-andai ayat tsb ada, tdk ada yg salah juga, toh di dlm
(BAl-Quran, Yesus itu anak Maryam, bukan anak Yusuf. Orang menganggap Yesus
(Banak Yusuf krn
(BYusuf bersedia melindungi dan menikahi Maryam. Nggak ada yg salah, khan??
(B
(B
(B
(B
(Bmengapa dalam seluruh penerjemahan kitab suci ke dalam bahasa lainnya, para
(Bpendeta telah membiarkan kalimat "menurut anggapan orang." dan telah
(Bmenghilangkan kedua kurungnya itu. Kalau begitu tidak mungkinkah
(Bbangsa-bangsa di seluruh dunia ini (selain Inggris) tidak memahami arti dan
(Btujuan dari kedua kurung itu?"
(B=============
(BSilakan perhatikan kembali : AYATNYA TDK ADA!!!
(BApa yg diimani Umat Kristen saat ini, SAMA DENGAN YG DIIMANI UMAT KRISTEN
(BPERDANA,
(BKRN SUMBERNYA JUGA SAMA.
(B
(BPenyebaran Agama Kristen perdana dijalankan oleh Para Rasul & Murid2 Yesus,
(Borang-orang sederhana yg lurus hatinya. Mereka rela mati dibunuh (bukan
(Bberperang) demi penyebaran "kabar Gembira" Injil. Kalau bukan kekuatan yg
(Bberasal dari Allah, manusia tdk mampu menjalankannya.
(B
(BMereka tdk punya barang-barang yg bisa dijual spt Muhammad & para pedagang
(BArab yg menyebarkan Agama demi kekayaan dan makan orang Arab ( yg kala itu
(Bminyak belum ditemukan), kekuasaan, penyebaran kebudayaan Arab dan
(Bkebanggaan Bangsa Arab.
(B
(B
(B
(B"Apa jeleknya orang-orang yang berbicara bahasa indonesia? Kenapa para
(Bpendeta menyingkirkan kedua kurung itu dari Injil terjemahan, sedang
(Bkalimatnya masih tetap?"
(B==============
(BAda yg bisa jawab??? Pertanyaannya nggak jelas!!
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B gembong kidil
(B
(B <[EMAIL PROTECTED] To:
([email protected]
(B o.com> cc:
(B
(B Sent by: Subject: Re: Kok Orang
(BKristen yang Pusing? - Re:
(B [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ppiindia] Re: Kontroversi
(Bshalat Bahasa Indonesia
(B ups.com
(B
(B
(B
(B 05/10/2005 12:31
(B
(B PM
(B
(B Please respond to
(B
(B ppiindia
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B"Ketika Yesus memulai pekerjaannya, la berumur kira-kira tiga puluh tahun
(Bdan Dia (menurut anggapan orang) adalah anak Yusuf, anak Eli." (Lukas
(B3:231)
(B
(BDalam "manuskrip" Injil Lukas "yang lebih kuno" tidak terdapat kalimat
(B"(menurut anggapan orang)".
(B
(BSebenarnya ini hanya pekerjaan penerjemah Injil yang merasa bahwa tanpa
(Badanya tambahan (penjelasan) yang asing ini, dikhawatirkan "domba-domba
(Bkecil" yang belum kuat benar imannya; akan tergelincir dalam keyakinannya,
(Bbahwa Yusuf si tukang kayu itulah bapak yang sebenarnya dari Yesus. Dengan
(Balasan itulah, mereka memberikan tambahan penjelasan pribadi dan diberi
(Bkurung agar jangan sampai terjadi kesalah-pahaman.
(B
(Bmengapa dalam seluruh penerjemahan kitab suci ke dalam bahasa lainnya, para
(Bpendeta telah membiarkan kalimat "menurut anggapan orang." dan telah
(Bmenghilangkan kedua kurungnya itu. Kalau begitu tidak mungkinkah
(Bbangsa-bangsa di seluruh dunia ini (selain Inggris) tidak memahami arti dan
(Btujuan dari kedua kurung itu?"
(B
(B"Apa jeleknya orang-orang yang berbicara bahasa indonesia? Kenapa para
(Bpendeta menyingkirkan kedua kurung itu dari Injil terjemahan, sedang
(Bkalimatnya masih tetap?"
(Bcc mas Syamsul
(B
(BCarla Annamarie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
(Bdo you have data, facts, or systematical back ground to support this
(Bjudgemental statement..?
(Bpls provide...
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B gembong kidil
(B
(B <[EMAIL PROTECTED] To:
([email protected]
(B o.com> cc:
(B
(B Sent by: Subject: Re: Kok Orang
(BKristen yang Pusing? - Re:
(B [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ppiindia] Re: Kontroversi
(Bshalat Bahasa Indonesia
(B ups.com
(B
(B
(B
(B 05/10/2005 12:07
(B
(B PM
(B
(B Please respond to
(B
(B ppiindia
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B
(Bmungkin itu kenapa ajaran kristen tidak murni lagi ya....
(B1. disebabkan kemampuan orang mengartikan bahasa asli
(B2. niat terselubung dari mereka yang menamakan diri sebagai pembawa ajaran
(B(pendeta)
(B
(Bthat's just a thought.....
(B
(BCarla Annamarie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
(B
(BDear PAk Nizami,
(B
(Bcool down dunk..:))..dont get easily offended.., it's only a question..not
(Ban accusation or insult..
(Btake it easy..pak..:))..that curiosity wont bite u..anyway..
(B
(B
(Bcheers..
(Bcarla
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B A Nizami
(B
(B <[EMAIL PROTECTED] To:
([email protected]
(B om> cc:
(B
(B Sent by: Subject: Kok Orang Kristen
(Byang Pusing? - Re: [ppiindia]
(B [EMAIL PROTECTED] Re: Kontroversi shalat
(BBahasa Indonesia
(B ups.com
(B
(B
(B
(B 05/10/2005 11:07
(B
(B AM
(B
(B Please respond to
(B
(B ppiindia
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B
(B
(BSaya lihat di milis ini, rata2 justru orang Kristen
(Byang menganggap sholat dalam bahasa Indonesia tidak
(Bsesat. Ya wajar. Jangankan sholat bahasa Indonesia,
(Bmenyembah Yesus sebagai Tuhan saja kan tidak sesat.
(BIya nggak?
(B
(BMenurut saya tiap agama ada aturannya sendiri2. Sholat
(Bjuga ada aturannya. Jangankan pakai bahasa Indonesia,
(Bpakai bahasa Arab saja tidak boleh jika kata2nya
(Bberbeda dengan surat Al Qur'an atau bacaan yang telah
(Bdiajarkan Nabi. Nabi berkata, sholatlah sebagaimana
(Baku sholat.
(B
(BOleh karena itu, sholat subuh ada 2 raka'at. Tidak
(Bbisa kita menambahnya jadi 4 raka'at dgn alasan biar
(Blebih lama ibadahnya. Atau sholat dzuhur dan ashar
(Bbacaannya harus pelan. Tidak bisa kita keraskan agar
(Byang lain bisa mendengarkan.
(B
(BSholat memang harus memakai ayat Al Qur'an dan bacaan
(Byang telah diajarkan oleh Nabi. Bacaannya tidak banyak
(Bdan gampang dipelajari artinya.
(B
(BAda pun do'a, nah itu baru bebas pakai bahasa apa
(Bsaja.
(B
(BSaya sendiri heran, kok orang2 Kristen ikut mencampuri
(Bmasalah sholat ini? Kalau seandainya ada sempalan
(Bsesat di agama Kristen, dan para pendetanya bilang
(Bsesat, saya tidak akan mau mencampuri urusan agama
(Blain.
(B
(B
(B--- Carla Annamarie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
(Bwrote:
(B
(B>
(B> apakah pemakaian bhs arab dalam ibadah sholat
(B> merupakan kewajiban as
(B> stipulated in Q'uran atau memang merupakan bagian
(B> suatu budaya arab( means
(B> that using arab language in sholat is basically a
(B> custom)..?
(B>
(B>
(B>
(B>
(B>
(B>
(B>
(B> "Samudjo"
(B>
(B>
(B> <[EMAIL PROTECTED] To:
(B> <[email protected]>
(B>
(B> .com> cc:
(B>
(B>
(B> Sent by:
(B> Subject: Re: [ppiindia] Re: Kontroversi shalat
(B> Bahasa
(B> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(B> Indonesia
(B>
(B> ups.com
(B>
(B>
(B>
(B>
(B>
(B>
(B>
(B>
(B> 05/10/2005 10:07
(B>
(B>
(B> AM
(B>
(B>
(B> Please respond to
(B>
(B>
(B> ppiindia
(B>
(B>
(B>
(B>
(B>
(B>
(B>
(B>
(B>
(B>
(B>
(B>
(B> 1 Watt:
(B> Shalat bukan buat Tuhan tapi untuk kebaikan
(B> makhluknya sendiri
(B> Resep yang dibawa oleh Muhammad memakai bahasa Arab
(B> Kita percaya bahwa resepnya itu manjur untuk
(B> berkomunikasi denganNya
(B> Jadi kita pake cara Muhammad sepenuhnya sebagai
(B> konsekwensi shahadat yang
(B> mempercayai Muhammad sebagai utusanNya
(B> Apa yang diucapkan Muhammad ketika Shalat terutama
(B> bacaan yang dikeraskan
(B> itu termasuk rukun yang harus dilaksanakan.
(B> Doa-doa lain yang kita panjatkan pada saat ruku,
(B> saat kita diharapkan
(B> mengintrospeksi diri atau saat kita sujud menyadari
(B> kebesaranNya, keduanya
(B> itu tidak termasuk rukun, kecuali ada hadist
(B> penjelasan khusus
(B> Akhirnya masing-masing individulah yang meyakini dan
(B> Allah Yang Maha Tahu
(B> apakah shalat kita berhasil atau batal.
(B> Insya Allah,
(B> Samudjo
(B> ----- Original Message -----
(B> From: "givingnewhope" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
(B> To: <[email protected]>
(B> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 3:24 AM
(B> Subject: [ppiindia] Re: Kontroversi shalat Bahasa
(B> Indonesia
(B>
(B>
(B> > Iya yach..
(B> > Lalu bagaimana dengan gelar Tuhan sebagai Maha
(B> Tahu?! Bukankah ini
(B> > sama saja menganggap remeh Tuhan dan meragukan
(B> kebenaran Al Quran
(B> > sendiri?!
(B> > Mohon lampu 5 watt.
(B> >
(B> > Salam,
(B> >
(B> >
(B> > --- In [email protected], Suyanto Tanamal
(B> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
(B> > wrote:
(B> > > hahhaa..kocak..Bahasa indo koQ diganti ke Arab?
(B> Itu namanya
(B> > menghancurkan budaya sendiri. Mau pake bahasa
(B> apapun (especially for
(B> > Christians, speak in tounge) Lord will understand
(B> it because He who
(B> > created everything understand everything. Masa
(B> bahasa indonesia yg
(B> > begitu populer, dipake ama 200an juta org + orang2
(B> melayu di
(B> > singapore n malaysia (hampir mirip ke bhs indo)
(B> gak dimengerti ama
(B> > Tuhan?
(B> > >
(B> > > ......... ........ .........lucu =)
(B> > >
(B> > > Ambon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
(B> > > Refleksi: Bahasa Indonesia bukan saja
(B> menyulitkan orang yang
(B> > memakai untuk berdoa, tetapi juga mantan Presiden
(B> RI Jenderal Haji
(B> > Muhammad Soeharto tidak mau memakainya pada waktu
(B> diinterogasi oleh
(B> > jaksa beberapa tahun lalu. Jadi kalau dipikir
(B> dengan kriteria pasar
(B> > bahasa, bahasa Indonesia tidak laku! Sebagai jalan
(B> keluar harus
(B> > dicari bahasa alternatif yang serba guna baik di
(B> bumi maupun di
(B> > surga. Agaknya bahasa yang memenuhi syarat ini
(B> ialah bahasa Arab.
(B> > >
(B> > > Bagaimana kalau bahasa Indonesia diganti dengan
(B> bahasa Arab? Ada
(B> > untung berbahasa Arab, yaitu rakyat [ummat] bisa
(B> mengucapkan doa
(B> > tanpa problem dan juga dapat diperkirakan bahwa
(B> doa yang diucapkan
(B> > bisa langsung dimengerti dan dikabulkan olehNya,
(B> alhasil semoga
(B> > rahmatNya dikarauniakan untuk kita dibebaskan
(B> dari cengkraman
(B> > kesusahan hidup setiap hari.
(B> > >
(B> > > ++++
(B> > >
(B>
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(B***************************************************************************
(B> Berdikusi dg Santun & Elegan, dg Semangat
(B> Persahabatan. Menuju Indonesia yg
(B> Lebih Baik, in Commonality & Shared Destiny.
(B> www.ppi-india.org
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(B__________________________________________________________________________
(B> Mohon Perhatian:
(B>
(B> 1. Harap tdk. memposting/reply yg menyinggung SARA
(B> (kecuali sbg otokritik)
(B> 2. Pesan yg akan direply harap dihapus, kecuali yg
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(BBacalah artikel tentang Islam di:
(Bhttp://www.nizami.org
(B
(B
(B
(BYahoo! Mail
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(BBerdikusi dg Santun & Elegan, dg Semangat Persahabatan. Menuju Indonesia yg
(BLebih Baik, in Commonality & Shared Destiny. www.ppi-india.org
(B***************************************************************************
(B__________________________________________________________________________
(BMohon Perhatian:
(B
(B1. Harap tdk. memposting/reply yg menyinggung SARA (kecuali sbg otokritik)
(B2. Pesan yg akan direply harap dihapus, kecuali yg akan dikomentari.
(B3. Lihat arsip sebelumnya, www.ppi-india.da.ru;
(B4. Satu email perhari: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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(B
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(B***************************************************************************
(BBerdikusi dg Santun & Elegan, dg Semangat Persahabatan. Menuju Indonesia yg
(BLebih Baik, in Commonality & Shared Destiny. www.ppi-india.org
(B***************************************************************************
(B__________________________________________________________________________
(BMohon Perhatian:
(B
(B1. Harap tdk. memposting/reply yg menyinggung SARA (kecuali sbg otokritik)
(B2. Pesan yg akan direply harap dihapus, kecuali yg akan dikomentari.
(B3. Lihat arsip sebelumnya, www.ppi-india.da.ru;
(B4. Satu email perhari: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(B5. No-email/web only: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(B6. kembali menerima email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(B
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(B To visit your group on the web, go to:
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(B***************************************************************************
(BBerdikusi dg Santun & Elegan, dg Semangat Persahabatan. Menuju Indonesia yg
(BLebih Baik, in Commonality & Shared Destiny. www.ppi-india.org
(B***************************************************************************
(B__________________________________________________________________________
(BMohon Perhatian:
(B
(B1. Harap tdk. memposting/reply yg menyinggung SARA (kecuali sbg otokritik)
(B2. Pesan yg akan direply harap dihapus, kecuali yg akan dikomentari.
(B3. Lihat arsip sebelumnya, www.ppi-india.da.ru;
(B4. Satu email perhari: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(B5. No-email/web only: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(B6. kembali menerima email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(B
(BYahoo! Groups Links
(B
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