Dear Pak Hakim, fairness must be objective. and fair must be equal. equal means u should show me an equal proof.
the expat u mention below re working to foreign companies (western companies) that recide in those cities. the arabs government need them for running their business, those relationship between expats n arabs government based on business interest. it's called "mutual relationship business". expats u mentioned below re not permanent resident of arabs countries (contrary to muslims that lived in western countries), they usually recided there for temporary amount of time, they re not want to become citizen (contrary to muslims they even apply for citizenship in western countries), they only temporary recided there for business only, bcs the arabs needs them running their oil business. u re still not answering my question...., do u or can u find any single fair treatment for non muslim in arabs countries ( as i said earlier..i wanna make it easier for u.., show me the fair treatment for christian arabs n copts in arabs countries). from my earliest post i already shown u the proof of fair treatment for muslims in western countries, now it's ur time to provide me with equal fairness of proof for non muslims ( christian arabs n copts) in arabs countries. im still patiently waiting for ur proof. as i repeat my question once again in case u didnt comprehend nor understand my question. "do u or can u find any single fair treatment for non muslim in arabs countries ( as i said earlier..i wanna make it easier for u.., show me the fair treatment for christian arabs n copts in arabs countries) as u compared it to the fair treatment muslims received in western countries." ----- Original Message ---- From: hakim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: ppiindia@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 10:44:23 AM Subject: Re: Bls: [ppiindia] Re: Kelompok minoritas muslim mengalami diskriminasi (saya juga sangat sedih) Dear Ibu Carla Contoh lain. Coba Ibu Carla lihat di Kota Jeddah, Dubai, and Kuwait City Di kota ini dengan mudah dijumpai orang-orang Bule yang sudah bermukim di sana bertahun-tahun tanpa gangguan. Memang mereka bukan imigran tetapi ekspatriat. Namun demikian tidaklah berarti tidak bisa manjadi contoh bahwa ada fair treatment dari kaum muslimin kepada non muslimin. Di negara-negara maju keberadaan kaum migran juga tidak semuanya smooth seperti yang Ibu Carla contohkan. Ada saja yang dicari-cari untuk kesalahan mereka. Memang tidak semua imigran bisa "klop" dengan budaya, aturan dan hukum di negara maju tsb. Poinnya adalah pls be fair. Salam Hakim ----- Original Message ----- From: carla annamarie kneefel To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] s.com Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 10:23 AM Subject: Re: Bls: [ppiindia] Re: Kelompok minoritas muslim mengalami diskriminasi (saya juga sangat sedih) dear Pak Hakim, u dont i answer my previous question.., do u or can u not find any single proof of fair treatment for non-muslim in arab countries? yes or no? if yes..show me the proof... im still waiting for ur answer referred to the fair treatment from western countries which i have posted earlier. let me make it simple for u..., those moslems that came to western countries re immigrant but still they treated fairly. but those non-muslim in arab countries re native arabs. (christian arabs or copts in eqypt). so when i ask u abt the proof regarding fair treatment for non muslim in arabs countries, it should me easier for u to answer and give me the proof, rite? im still waiting for ur proof. ----- Original Message ---- From: hakim <[EMAIL PROTECTED] co.id> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] s.com Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 9:58:35 AM Subject: Re: Bls: [ppiindia] Re: Kelompok minoritas muslim mengalami diskriminasi (saya juga sangat sedih) Dear Ibu Carla Why they still come..? Tentunya banyak alasan dan sebab mengapa mereka masih terus berdatangan ke negara-negara maju. Salah satunya bisa jadi ada "gula" ada "semut". Adanya gula bisa membuat orang berspekulasi menantang bahaya di negara tujuan. Jangankan negara damai yang aturan dan hukumnya jelas, lha di negara yang kacau balau saja banyak orang berdatangan untuk mengadu nasib. Bisa juga karena, imigran tersebut merupakan pelarian politik yang tidak "sreg" dengan penguasa mereka. Ibu Carla jangan salah, dari contoh saya di bawah jelas terlihat bahwa tidak semua tempat/negara memperlakukan umat muslim dengan buruk. Hal ini klop dengan contoh yang Ibu utarakan. Ibu mau contoh jelas? I'll give you the proof. Pls, look at mbah Danar. He is not a second class. He is an international banker. Dari postingan mbah Danar, berkali-kali beliau sampaikan kalau sering berbisnis dengan orang Arab di negara-negara Timur Tengah. Coba tanyakan pengalaman mbah Danar dengan timnya di Middle East. Apakah mbah Danar diperlakukan dengan baik? atau sebaliknya? Pripun mbah Danar? sae to mbah? Salam sae Hakim ----- Original Message ----- From: carla annamarie kneefel To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] s.com Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 8:50 AM Subject: Re: Bls: [ppiindia] Re: Kelompok minoritas muslim mengalami diskriminasi (saya juga sangat sedih) dear pak Hakim, both of us agree that fact must be fair. since early 60's until now, muslims from arab countries went to US n Europe, they even went to western embassy for help bcs they want to flew from their arab countries. the number of immigrant moslems have been increasing year after year, my logical question is if they knew the western will treat them bad, why they still come..? it's not logic, isn't it? i mean why they left their precious arab countries and went to US n Europe? bcs the freedom and liberty in western country. in this modern society can u give me an example of the fair treatment for non muslim in arab countries compared to the treatment for muslim in western countries ? do the minority of non-muslim have the same freedom in arab countries as muslim gain more freedom in western countries? as in my previous post, i already shown the fact abt how the western treat muslim in their country. muslim not only had given freedom but demand preference. from all place on earth..where sunnis n shi'a killed each other, burn each other's mosques, only in western countries they can live peacefully.. not in arabs countries, do u you know why? bcs the freedom and liberty. bcs civil law is the supreme law in western society not religious law. fact prove that even religious law cant settle the war between sunni and shi'a, rite? so pak Hakim, can u show me an evidence of proof abt the fair treatment of non-muslim in arab countries.., i mean a fair treatment, not a second class citizen. , show the fair treatment of non muslim in arab countries and compared it to how the muslims have been treatment in western countries. show me the proof? im waiting. ----- Original Message ---- From: hakim <[EMAIL PROTECTED] co.id> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] s.com Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 7:46:31 AM Subject: Re: Bls: [ppiindia] Re: Kelompok minoritas muslim mengalami diskriminasi (saya juga sangat sedih) Fact must be fair Jumlah gereja di Jawa jauh lebih banyak daripada jumlah masjid/musholla di daerah Manado, NTT, Ambon dan sekitarnya. Adalah tidak fair kalau hanya menyoroti "kesulitan" pendirian gereja di Jawa sedangkan "kesulitan" pendirian masjid/musholla di daerah-daerah tsb tidak pernah digubris. Pendirian masjid di negara-negara maju juga tidaklah semudah pendirian gereja di Indonesia. Butuh pengorbanan banyak hal dan butuh waktu bertahun-tahun untuk mewujudkan pendirian masjid-masjid tsb. Kalaupun fakta yang disampaikan Ibu Carla memang benar, hal tersebut tidaklah dapat menutupi fakta baik fakta sejarah maupun saat ini adanya perlakukan non muslim kepada orang muslim baik berupa pembantaian muslimin di Spanyol, Bosnia, Maluku, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Irak, dsb. Belum lagi perlakuan diskriminasi yang dialami banyak tenaga kerja (PRT, Sopir, dsb) yang bekerja di keluarga non muslim. Harap maklum Salam be fair Hakim ----- Original Message ----- From: "carla annamarie kneefel" <carla_annamarie17@ yahoo.com> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] p s.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 2:30 PM Subject: Re: Bls: [ppiindia] Re: Kelompok minoritas muslim mengalami diskriminasi (saya juga sangat sedih) fact must be fair... in US there're more mosques than churches in arab countries. we roll out the red carpet for the immigrant Muslims, treat them as we would with our own citizens, give them stipends, medical care, and free education. in EU countries, they re many moslem immigrant who lives freely, building they mosques, they lives by our tax, we gave them our country to live, we gave them medical n education n financial support, there're many students from arabs countries who grant scholarship from our countries (EU and US). Western governments have allowed Muslim communities to settle in their countries, offered financial aid in building their mosques, and allowed them to bring Imams from Muslim lands. why were some propagandists of political Islam allowed to settle in Western countries? Millions of Muslims come to the 'Infidel West' and live in it, in peace and tranquility. In fact the proportional number of mosques in the West is greater than in Islamic lands. For example there are more than one thousand mosques in Britain, while the number of Muslims living there is around two million! At the same time, Copts in Egypt are not allowed to build new churches unless they get permission from the President; and obtaining the needed permit for that is almost impossible. Furthermore, when a Christian comes to Saudi Arabia, he is not allowed to bring his Bible with him; if he has one, it is confiscated at the airport! "Muslims enjoy complete freedom of worship in the West; in fact they have more freedom in Western lands than in Islamic countries. Actually, religious freedom for Muslims is granted only and uniquely to the type of Islam that is sanctioned by the state. Thus, Shi'ites living in Wahhabi Saudi Arabia don't enjoy the freedom to express their own type of Islam. As for Iran, the case is reversed, since Shi'ism is the official religion of the state, Sunni Muslims do not enjoy complete freedom. It is a fact that no mosque has been bombed in any Western country, whereas attacks on mosques, [both Sunni and Shi'ite mosques] often happen in Islamic countries . ----- Original Message ---- From: hakim <[EMAIL PROTECTED] co.id> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] s.com Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 11:58:01 AM Subject: Re: Bls: [ppiindia] Re: Kelompok minoritas muslim mengalami diskriminasi (saya juga sangat sedih) Nambahin pak... Dalam bahasa singkat adalah sbb : Ketika menjadi minoritas, non muslim menonjolkan "cinta kasih". Ketika menjadi mayoritas, non muslim terlihat aslinya kepada umat Islam al: diskriminasi, mempersulit pendirian masjid, stigma negatif, genocida dsb. Gimana mbah? salah apa benar mbah? Pls be fair. Salam fair Hakim ----- Original Message ----- From: hariss_ypmi@ yamaha-motor. co.id To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] s.com Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:48 AM Subject: Re: Bls: [ppiindia] Re: Kelompok minoritas muslim mengalami diskriminasi (saya juga sangat sedih) pak samsidar..just info ya, pak raden ini bukan orang kristen, ga tahu deh agamanya apa? ga jelas :) tetep ajah minoritas di sini lebih 'unjuk gigi' ketimbang minoritas muslim di negara kafir. Lha minoritas di sini kebakaran jenggot dg bunyi sila 1 pancasila 'menjalankan syariat islam bagi pemeluknya' trus skrng bunyinya gimana tuh? hehe minoritas di sini emang top, sering usil jg, walau ga semua, ada jg yg baik (kaya'nya pak raden ga termasuk tuh) yah ada ajah anak nakalnya (kaya' sapa ya? :p), nah giliran 'dijewer' ajah nangis deh merengek2, yg katanya muslimnya melanggar ham lah inilah itulah hehe udh gede jgn cengeng aah Samsidar Situmorang <[EMAIL PROTECTED] co.id> Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] s.com 11/28/2007 10:40 AM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] s.com To [EMAIL PROTECTED] s.com cc Subject Bls: [ppiindia] Re: Kelompok minoritas muslim mengalami diskriminasi (saya juga sangat sedih) Bung Dono, memangnya bukan di negerimu juga? kamu tinggal dimana? dari dulu yang namanya minoritas tentu harus menghormati yang mayoritas ( namanya tau diri), ini juga namanya 'tepo seliro' kata orang jawa (bukankah kamu yang lebih ngerti sebagai keturunan darah biru ..kok malah lagak Bego?) islam, kristen, hindu dan agama lain, kulit hitam, semuanya susah mendapatkan keadilan bila jadi minoritas, itu sudah hukum alam, wong dasarnya manusia memang susah berbuat adil.. makanya elo jangan ngomong seenak perut sendiri....memangny a kamu tinggal dimana?? kok lagaknya sok tau betul dengan negeri ini. elo pernah dengar sejarah-nya kristen di Bali???? bagaimana mereka dipinggirkan? ??? bagaimana sejarah islam di Bali? sejarah Islam di Manado? elo ngomong asal keluar mulut saja....memangnya kamu sendiri yang kristiani?? gue saranin elo musti belajar lagi deh ----- Pesan Asli ---- Dari: RM Danardono HADINOTO <rm_danardono@ yahoo.de> Kepada: [EMAIL PROTECTED] s.com Terkirim: Rabu, 28 November, 2007 7:43:48 Topik: [ppiindia] Re: Kelompok minoritas muslim mengalami diskriminasi (saya juga sangat sedih) --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] s.com, sFe <[EMAIL PROTECTED] ..> wrote: > > Muslim Filipina Berharap Undang-Undang Anti-Diskriminasi Segera Disahkan Selasa, 27 Nov 07 15:54 WIB > > Warga Muslim Filipina kini sedang berharap-harap cemas, akankah wakil rakyat di negeri itu mau mengesahkan undang-undang anti- diskriminasi. Karena keberadaan undang-undang ini secara tidak langsung akan berpengaruh bagi kehidupan mereka sebagai warga minoritas di negara yang mayoritas penduduknya beragama Katolik itu. > *** Urus dulu, bagaimana minoritas diperlakukan oleh umat Muslim di negeri anda sendiri, sebelum melirik ke negeri orang. Bacalah penutupan rumah rumah ibadah dan perlakuan mempersulit pendirian rumah ibadah. Tambahan ya: Muslim di Philippina membuat ONAR dengan kekuatan senjata, di negeri anda, Non Muslim malah yang kasih nafkah pada anda! dari pembantu rumah tangga, buruh pabrik sampai satpam satpam dan pemulung di hunian hunian menengah keatas semua diberi makan pengusaha atau pemilik realestat Non Muslim. perusahaan perusahaan terbesar pembayar pajak siapa sih? 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