Bob I don't think that OT has become what it is because of who we *all* are, after all it only takes a few rotten apples doesn't it. I think just a few simple rules of etiquette would suffice to raise the bar:
- Never assume your own POV is either correct or the only one (which includes you Bob) - Always read and try to understand and give consideration to the other person's POV - Do not deliberately antagonise or troll other people who have different POVs (and that includes sarcasm) - Saying something many times does not make it any more right Remember, in the final analysis, we are all here because presumably we enjoy discussion. So let's keep doing just that. Regards Dominic Burford BSc Hons MBCS CITP Third Party Developer Program Senior Software Engineer * Tel: +44 (0) 1536 495074 * [EMAIL PROTECTED] "I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple there are obviously no deficiencies, and the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies." -- Tony Hoare, Turing Award Lecture 1980 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Calco Sent: 04 July 2006 15:17 To: 'ProFox Email List' Subject: [OT] RE: ProFox List Statistics for June, 2006 Chet: I give Bill credit for attempting rational discourse, however, I've not seen ANYTHING but vitriolic left-wing rhetorical hit pieces from you. Not that there's anything wrong with that per se, your bromides are after all hugely entertaining to read, but that you of all people should be speaking in praise of 'rational discourse' is amusing. Nevertheless Pete's point about Bill's voluminous posting is partially on-point. It not like he says anything new in his epistles, it's always: * The planet is doomed without the UN taking control of everything (to the contrary the oil-for-food scandal shows how badly we really need the UN) * We must convict and hang every neo-con within a 500 mile radius of DC (no need for a trial, since all the evidence has been posted by commondreams.org and the Huffington post) * We need to give Israel back to the Palestinians and send the Jews back where they came from (presumably New York), if they obstinately refuse to embrace their arab brethren in full democratic spirit just because they blow up pizzarias filled with women and children, kidnap and torture Israelis, and threaten annihilation of all Jews. * We need push-button teledemocracy via the internet; only that can bring integrity to our electoral process * We need to explore space because, well, Captain Kirk said it's the 'final frontier' * I believe in God but I think atheists are really smart people who are on to something * Karl Jung rocks and really isnt read often or well enough * I categorically oppose seat belt laws but I believe in regulatory newsgroup post limitations and style guides (seat belts for posters, as it were) But Pete doesn't do Bill full justice. At least Bill experiments with ways to rephrase and reformulate these points, and persuade people who disagree with his perspective of their wisdom, mostly without rancor---that's what's to his credit. (I half expect him now to go point-by-point through my list of gross oversimplifications to point out that each one is a gross oversimplification. ;-) ) My points are similarly few and doubtless easily caricatured as well, and I often fail to match Bill's earnestness, but I have made a conscious effort lately to post only once in a while, because no matter how hard I try rational discourse (usually about the war in Iraq) or throwing out a new idea (like my contrary views on trade and taxes), the only person who ever stands up to the challenge consistently is Bill (with Jim Eddins chiming in occasionally with his outstanding wit, and Dominic Burford pointing out when I get rhetorically too near his pain tolerance level). ;) I think part of the problem with you lefties not liking OT anymore is you're not really into rational discourse, for the most part. Mike says ANYTHING in his usually iconoclastic Chris-Rock-meets-Jack-the-Ripper style and that becomes some kind of excuse to drop out of discussion of any kind in indignant exasperation, or make pious statements about how much better educated and more tolerant you are. Kristyne is notable exception, she manages to make those points consistently without dropping out in exasperation most of the time. :) I also posit that Ed's tone-setting example is one of the reasons for the dirth of engaging discussion on OT lately. His unforgiving, get-thee-behind-me-you-worthless-moron attitude typifies OT "tolerance" better than any of Mike's semi-automatic keyboard bursts. Only tolerate people who not only write like Bertrand Russell or Aristotle, yea, but also think like them. Everyone one else's opinion and mode of expression is worthless 'drivel' and can and should be safely ignored. Well now, how much 'rational discourse' can you expect in such an environment? People consciously or sub-consciously live up to the expectations you set for them (for good or ill). They also resist any conscious attempt you make to set expectations for them. ...An aspect of the human dilemma that I have learned by raising children. (And having been a child once myself, once upon a time...) OT has become what it has become because of who we all are, and we all need to look in the mirror if we find it lacking, not just a handful of posters with a knack for one-or-two-line zingers (which includes you, Chet). Every time I hear the "Oh, woe is OT!" lament I can't help but wonder how it would be different if that energy was actually used to raise the level of discussion, rather than just bemoan or condemn it and blame one or two people for scaring away the so-called, self-proclaimed smart folk. - Bob ! -----Original Message----- ! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ! [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chet Gardiner ! Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 2:13 AM ! To: [email protected] ! Subject: Re: ProFox List Statistics for June, 2006 ! ! Ah, "on and on"...you mean attempting rational discourse rather than ! regurgitating bogus right-wing talking points. ! ! This continues the drift [OT] begun by others... :-) ! ! ! ! petetheisen wrote: ! ! > Bill Arnold wrote: ! > ! >>>>> Total [OT] Posts: 1983 ! >>>>> (Up 135.51% relative to May, 2006) ! >>>> ! >>>> ! >>>> [shudder!] ! >>>> ! >>> ! >>> That is remarkable. So glad I don't get to see OT. Just the ! >>> statistics amaze me. And I thought I posted too much! ! >> ! >> ! >> I trust folks like you and Ed do see the irony here: ProFox was ! >> established because freedom of speech was under assault. ! The irony is ! >> that we then became victim to a groupie or two who took ! the opportunity ! >> to flood the list with nonsense, which drove away the very ! people, such ! >> as yourself, whose opinions we thought we were clearing ! the way for. ! >> ! >> When someone posts almost 600 times in one month, that's ! not an exercise ! >> in free speech, that's an attack. ! > ! > ! > Hi Bill! ! > ! > The volume of your posts is approximately equal to the 600 ! posts from ! > the other guy. He gets to the point, you go on and on and ! on and . . . ! > ! > Regards, ! > ! > Pete ! > ! > ! > ! > ! ! [excessive quoting removed by server] _______________________________________________ Post Messages to: [email protected] Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. 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