You should know pathetic, you look at it in the mirror every day. 1. We went to topple Saddam Hussein's regime
2. We went to prevent spread of WMD 3. We went to create an island of democracy in the savage middle east. 4. We went to counter-balance Iran. --- "Helio W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > OMG, you really believe the US only invaded Iraq to > "liberate" their people > from a dictatorship... That's pathetic. > > On 11/27/06, Robert Calco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Bill: > > > > On Nov 25, 2006, at 12:58 PM, Bill Arnold wrote: > > > > > > > > > Leadership by example is the solution you're > looking for. When > > > everything is said and done, it is as > self-evident and simple as that. > > > > > > > Truisms are always 'as simple as that'. > > > > > > > > > But we do make decisions every step of the way, > and what we wind up > > > with > > > is the cumulative result of those decisions, > nothing more, nothing > > > less. > > > > > > For some reason this reminds me of Oliver Twist: > "whether I am to be > > > master of my own destiny or whether that station > will be held by > > > someone > > > else ..." > > > > Therein was, and is, the appeal of what we've > done: To give others > > that right. Certainly, average Iraqis and Afghanis > had no such power > > before either invasion; now, despite the upheaval, > they do. You seem > > all-too-comfortable with the idea that tyranny is > OK as long as it's > > somewhere else, and we just mind our own business. > > > > Don't get me wrong: I strongly share that > sentiment on a certain > > level. Frankly, it's up to people to liberate > themselves from > > whatever shackles they endure, whether they be > imposed from without > > (tyranny) or from within (guilt over sin, > self-loathing). The > > struggle for freedom on every level is more "real" > and the results > > more appreciated when you do it yourself than when > a Knight In > > Shining Armor does all the grunt work for you. > > > > > > > > You want to keep shifting the frame of reference > around in ways that > > > excuse these people, and I'm just not buying it. > > > > Herein I think lies our temperamental difference > on this point: I am > > merely more of a Porfiry Petrovich at the moment, > in > > contradistinction to your Javert. > > > > > Sure, human nature is > > > one of opposites, and that fact alone can and > has generated libraries > > > full of discussion, but the case in point is the > invasion of the ME, > > > it's utter failure, and what to do now. > > > > It's not an utter failure: that is one point on > which I do NOT agree. > > > > > > > > We must do something. Can we agree on that? What > I'm saying is that we > > > have an opportunity right in front of us, right > now. > > > > And you want to waste it on another OJ trial? > > > > > The recent > > > elections give us a springboard - an excuse, if > you will - to turn > > > things around. > > > > No I think in a way there were a form of > self-punishment. Time will > > bear this out. > > > > > > > > Most people agree now that they don't want that > war. > > > > Nobody "wants" war; they want peace, but some of > us aren't so naive > > to think peace can only be gotten peacefully. > However, when you are > > operating in ignorance, as we were on many levels > (wall of separation > > between agencies, crippled field intelligence > capacity, unclear > > picture of what to do after "victory"), the > violent option usually > > doesn't pan out as hoped. (Even when you do, it > may not. Sometimes > > what is necessary is by definition fraught with > risk and uncertainty; > > this doesn't make it less necessary though.) > > > > Another point I'll make now is that democracies > don't have the > > stomach for the kind of brutality that is required > to win wars > > against cold-blooded murderers like these. The > opposition party feels > > obligated, well, to oppose, in order to make the > case for becoming > > the majority party--and they'd sooner vilify their > own leaders in > > power than admit they are doing the job the people > asked them, > > through the elections, to do. This dynamic alone > divides the would be > > conquerer from within---now add to that the > fleeting nature of our > > long-term memory in the modern age and you see the > wisdom of Al > > Qaeda's long-term strategy. > > > > You should be afraid for the future not merely > because the "neo-cons" > > promoted an ill-considered (if arguably righteous) > move. Sometimes > > democracies need a little prodding from the > outside (the barbarians > > in the case of Rome; these monsters, in our case, > perhaps), but they > > always implode from within, often morphing into > dictatorships. This > > would happen no matter what party is in power at > the time, once the > > mores of the people have declined to a point that > they lose their own > > principles. > > > > In other words, if not the neo-cons, someone else > would have espoused > > these views, and done this thing (or something > like it), all your > > pointing to their manifesto notwithstanding. Our > current liberals in > > power now are no less prone to radical trust in > human rationalism and > > the righteousness of their own position. You ain't > seen nothing yet, > > and merely hanging the neo-cons won't prevent the > folly of the next > > generation of leaders. > > > > > There is more then > > > enough evidence that is was launch based on lies > and deceit. > > > > This is an arguable point, even though you don't > see it that way. > > > > > I'm saying > > > that by holding the people who did the lying and > deceiving > > > accountable, > > > we can show the world that we are capable of > self-correction. It > > > will be > > > painful, but nowhere near as painful as a larger > war. > > > > I am saying it doesn't matter what we tell the > world, or how kumbaya > > they feel about us. Moreover, I think the pain to > come will make the > > current pain seem almost analgesic, especially if > we react the way > > you suggest. Burn-the-witch mode is a lot of fun, > and gives a great > > sense of release, because it gives us the false > sense that the witch > > was the problem, not the evil that lurks in our > own hearts, and turns > > us into what we hate. > > > > > > > > If we don't do this, then we have to do > something else, and therein > > > lies > === message truncated === _______________________________________________ Post Messages to: [email protected] Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
