I'd hate to be you with no moral compass.
--- "Helio W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I say whatever I want to say, Virgil. > And your simple mindness is showing too. > > Good guys vs. bad guys. Black and white world. Bah. > > On 11/27/06, Virgil Bierschwale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > Careful Helio, your apathy is showing. > > > > > > Virgil Bierschwale > > http://www.tccutlery.com > > http://www.bierschwalesolutions.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > > Of Helio W. > > Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 8:15 PM > > To: ProFox Email List > > Subject: Re: [OT] Do you think McCain is right? > > > > OMG, you really believe the US only invaded Iraq > to "liberate" their > > people > > from a dictatorship... That's pathetic. > > > > On 11/27/06, Robert Calco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > > Bill: > > > > > > On Nov 25, 2006, at 12:58 PM, Bill Arnold wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Leadership by example is the solution you're > looking for. When > > > > everything is said and done, it is as > self-evident and simple as that. > > > > > > > > > > Truisms are always 'as simple as that'. > > > > > > > > > > > > But we do make decisions every step of the > way, and what we wind up > > > > with is the cumulative result of those > decisions, nothing more, > > > > nothing less. > > > > > > > > For some reason this reminds me of Oliver > Twist: "whether I am to be > > > > master of my own destiny or whether that > station will be held by > > > > someone else ..." > > > > > > Therein was, and is, the appeal of what we've > done: To give others > > > that right. Certainly, average Iraqis and > Afghanis had no such power > > > before either invasion; now, despite the > upheaval, they do. You seem > > > all-too-comfortable with the idea that tyranny > is OK as long as it's > > > somewhere else, and we just mind our own > business. > > > > > > Don't get me wrong: I strongly share that > sentiment on a certain > > > level. Frankly, it's up to people to liberate > themselves from whatever > > > shackles they endure, whether they be imposed > from without > > > (tyranny) or from within (guilt over sin, > self-loathing). The struggle > > > for freedom on every level is more "real" and > the results more > > > appreciated when you do it yourself than when a > Knight In Shining > > > Armor does all the grunt work for you. > > > > > > > > > > > You want to keep shifting the frame of > reference around in ways that > > > > excuse these people, and I'm just not buying > it. > > > > > > Herein I think lies our temperamental difference > on this point: I am > > > merely more of a Porfiry Petrovich at the > moment, in contradistinction > > > to your Javert. > > > > > > > Sure, human nature is > > > > one of opposites, and that fact alone can and > has generated > > > > libraries full of discussion, but the case in > point is the invasion > > > > of the ME, it's utter failure, and what to do > now. > > > > > > It's not an utter failure: that is one point on > which I do NOT agree. > > > > > > > > > > > We must do something. Can we agree on that? > What I'm saying is that > > > > we have an opportunity right in front of us, > right now. > > > > > > And you want to waste it on another OJ trial? > > > > > > > The recent > > > > elections give us a springboard - an excuse, > if you will - to turn > > > > things around. > > > > > > No I think in a way there were a form of > self-punishment. Time will > > > bear this out. > > > > > > > > > > > Most people agree now that they don't want > that war. > > > > > > Nobody "wants" war; they want peace, but some of > us aren't so naive to > > > think peace can only be gotten peacefully. > However, when you are > > > operating in ignorance, as we were on many > levels (wall of separation > > > between agencies, crippled field intelligence > capacity, unclear > > > picture of what to do after "victory"), the > violent option usually > > > doesn't pan out as hoped. (Even when you do, it > may not. Sometimes > > > what is necessary is by definition fraught with > risk and uncertainty; > > > this doesn't make it less necessary though.) > > > > > > Another point I'll make now is that democracies > don't have the stomach > > > for the kind of brutality that is required to > win wars against > > > cold-blooded murderers like these. The > opposition party feels > > > obligated, well, to oppose, in order to make the > case for becoming the > > > majority party--and they'd sooner vilify their > own leaders in power > > > than admit they are doing the job the people > asked them, through the > > > elections, to do. This dynamic alone divides the > would be conquerer > > > from within---now add to that the fleeting > nature of our long-term > > > memory in the modern age and you see the wisdom > of Al Qaeda's > > > long-term strategy. > > > > > > You should be afraid for the future not merely > because the "neo-cons" > > > promoted an ill-considered (if arguably > righteous) move. Sometimes > > > democracies need a little prodding from the > outside (the barbarians in > > > the case of Rome; these monsters, in our case, > perhaps), but they > > > always implode from within, often morphing into > dictatorships. This > > > would happen no matter what party is in power at > the time, once the > > > mores of the people have declined to a point > that they lose their own > > > principles. > > > > > > In other words, if not the neo-cons, someone > else would have espoused > > > these views, and done this thing (or something > like it), all your > > > pointing to their manifesto notwithstanding. Our > current liberals in > > > power now are no less prone to radical trust in > human rationalism and > > > the righteousness of their own position. You > ain't seen nothing yet, > > > and merely hanging the neo-cons won't prevent > the folly of the next > > > generation of leaders. > > > > > > > There is more then > > > > enough evidence that is was launch based on > lies and deceit. > > > > > > This is an arguable point, even though you don't > see it that way. > > > > > > > I'm saying > === message truncated === Senator Jon Tester Toilet Brush http://www.cafepress.com/rightwingmike/2114838 Right Wing Gear http://www.cafepress.com/rightwingmike _______________________________________________ Post Messages to: [email protected] Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
