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Post Messages to: [email protected] Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious. --- Randy Haun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Greetings, > > Ok. Could you help me with a technical issue? I > signed up for this forum > yesterday. I get enough of this dialog from talk > radio. Without choosing > sides, How do I remove myself? > > Thanks, > Randy > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Calco [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 7:50 AM > To: ProFox Email List > Subject: Re: [OT] Do you think McCain is right? > > > Again, Helio, I can't implore you enough to read > what I was actually saying. > But I am a patient person. > > Incidentally all I was saying was that liberty is > cherished "more deeply" > when you fight for it yourself vs. having it ushered > in by some mythical > Knight in Shining Armor. It was something of a dig > at our (American) > conception of ourselves and our "world mission"; I > think you lost something > in the translatiion. The deeper reality I'm hinting > at is that man takes too > much credit for the blessings he has, and seldom > deserves them; to think he > really has the power to bestow them on others is an > arrogance that afflicts > all flavors of humanism---not just the neo-con > version, to which I confess > that I succumbed. > > Even with that confession, and the dismal view of > human nature it admittedly > exposes on my part, I nevertheless cannot see the > whole thing in the > completely negative light you and others see it in. > The conclusion it was a > total failure and the people responsible for it need > to be carted off in > chains shows a lack, not a depth, of perspective > about a lot of things, not > the least of which being history. > > If there is to be democracy in Iraq, it's up to the > Iraqis to fight for it > now that they at least can. Previously they knew > only brutal tyrrany, and > really didn't have a chance to control their own > destiny. Now they have to > confront the frightful array of choices (including > going back into > battered-wife syndrome and seeking the strong-man > solution) before them. We > can't do that for them, but at least we did give > them an opportunity to > choose their own destiny. > > All this nonsense about how we somehow "control" > them or were really trying > to is negated by all the arguments (by the same > people) that the situation > is "out of control" having gone to great pains to > give them an opportunity > to vote for their own government. The fact they > chose leaders whom we did > not prefer and we nonetheless respected their choice > shows that they really > did have a free choice, and we weren't there merely > to set up a puppet > government. On the other hand (and this is my > critique) we really didn't > give them the best advice in terms of how they could > have structured there > government to deal up-front with some of the issues > perplexing them now. The > same thing happened in Russia. Has no one read the > Federalist papers? > > To err is human... > > :) > > - Bob > > On Monday, November 27, 2006, at 05:18PM, "Helio W." > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >"Knight in a shiny armor" (US) coming to rescue > Iraqs from oppression... > >This is utterly ridiculous. Hard to believe an > "adult" believe in such > silly > >terms. > > > >Probably Bob Calco believes Francisco Pizarro was > just trying to bring > >civilization and christianity to savages... LOL > > > > > >On 11/27/06, Bill Arnold <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > Therein was, and is, the appeal of what we've > done: To give others > >> > that right. Certainly, average Iraqis and > Afghanis had no such power > >> > before either invasion; now, despite the > upheaval, they do. > >> > >> > You seem all-too-comfortable with the idea that > tyranny is OK as long > >> as it's > >> > somewhere else, and we just mind our own > business. > >> > >> > Don't get me wrong: I strongly share that > sentiment on a certain > >> > level. Frankly, it's up to people to liberate > themselves from > >> > whatever shackles they endure, whether they be > imposed from without > >> > (tyranny) or from within (guilt over sin, > self-loathing). The > >> > struggle for freedom on every level is more > "real" and the results > >> > more appreciated when you do it yourself than > when a Knight In > >> > Shining Armor does all the grunt work for you. > > > > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > >multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > >--- > > > > [excessive quoting removed by server] _______________________________________________ Post Messages to: [email protected] Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
