I'm still not seeing how what you indicate as "the OSX design" makes sense for any interpreted programming environment which allows user defined menus.
-- Raul On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Ian Clark <[email protected]> wrote: > No, @Raul, I was answering Bill's question re OS X features. > > The "proper" design for OS X isn't fit for Windows -- and vice-versa. > You don't need to be a conspiracy theorist to know this is (-was) > intentional on the part of M$. Remember the "look and feel" lawsuit? > > On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 3:55 AM, Raul Miller <[email protected]> wrote: >> I'm not quite following your argument, Ian. >> >> It seems to me that if all windows owned by the JQt app must all have >> the same menu that this forbids user-defined menus. >> >> Is that really what you are saying J should be doing? >> >> Thanks, >> >> -- >> Raul >> >> >> On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 9:28 PM, Ian Clark <[email protected]> wrote: >>> @Bill >>> >>>> Is this behavior (sharing menu) a feature of osx in general? >>> >>> Yes, definitely. >>> >>> In OS X the menubar belongs to the app. Not to the window, as in >>> MSWin. At least it did when I was programming the Mac in C in the 80s >>> / 90s. >>> >>> Most commercial apps for the Mac, e.g. Firefox, TextEdit, Microsoft >>> Word, let you create a new window with ⌘N. E.g to edit a second >>> document. All such windows share the same menubar but window-specific >>> menu items (⌘C, ⌘V …) work only on the topmost (=active) window. >>> There's generally a "Window" menu, listing all open windows – the >>> active window is shown checked: (√). Of course there are apps which >>> only ever show one window. What the menubar applies-to is never in >>> doubt. >>> >>> J602 doesn't obey the rules. Thus: if you launch the Plot package, it >>> makes a separate window, but when you click on that window – the >>> menubar vanishes, leaving only the Apple-supplied menus ("Apple" and >>> "J"). I guess Plot is pretending to be an independent app? >>> >>> By contrast, JQt does obey the rules - up to a point. All windows >>> owned by JQt, even user-created ones, share the same menubar. However >>> the Edit and Term windows chop-and-change menus between them (a big >>> no-no - you should gray them out, not make them vanish.) That totally >>> bamboozled me, until I worked out what it was playing at. I was >>> discovering menu items one day and not finding them the next. >>> >>> The basic model is that when an app (e.g. DreamWeaver) lets you work >>> on either a picture or text, say, these aren't 2 different sorts of >>> window. They're one-and-the-same sort of window, adapted to picture or >>> text, inapplicable menu items like "Rotate" or "Spelling" being >>> grayed-out. The menubar is owned by the app, as I said, and is >>> therefore common to all windows. Apart from J, all Mac apps I've seen >>> follow this basic model. >>> >>> Qt, being cross-platform, is a law unto itself, it seems. >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 12:51 AM, bill lam <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> Is this behavior (sharing menu) a feature of osx in general? >>>> On Sep 14, 2015 5:17 AM, "Ian Clark" <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> @Chris >>>>> >>>>> > Does your repaint include some computation that could have been done up >>>>> front? >>>>> >>>>> It's TABULA. Judged superficially, yes. The toolbar is painted >>>>> laboriously pixel by pixel, also it's animated. A speedup would be to >>>>> take a snapshot of the isidraw and use that instead. But it is >>>>> (planned to be) reconfigurable by the user, so I don't want to get >>>>> into speedups just yet. Particularly as I'm now badly equipped for >>>>> cross-platform testing. >>>>> >>>>> > How did you do that? >>>>> >>>>> Currently a t-table carries free-form info that's displayed in the >>>>> "Info" tab. It's good in practice to have that optionally in a >>>>> separate window, so it can be left visible while interacting with the >>>>> main form, and I've done just that. >>>>> >>>>> But when the "Info" window has the focus, instead of the menubar >>>>> disappearing and being replaced by something vestigial, I can still >>>>> see the main form's menus. And they all work. >>>>> >>>>> TABULA also optionally creates a "plot" window – and the same remarks >>>>> apply. Bill thinks it's a bug not a feature. But jwplot wouldn't be so >>>>> useful within an app if it hid the app's menus. >>>>> >>>>> > I suppose we should allow redefining the menubar on the fly. >>>>> >>>>> I guess most J coders won't need the facility to reconfigure a menu >>>>> after every user interaction. Only people like me, trying to write >>>>> professional-looking cross-platform software. Perhaps I simply >>>>> shouldn't be using Jwd, but working directly with Qt widgets? I can't >>>>> be far short of my 100th GUI. >>>>> >>>>> wd 'set menuitem text "New Caption" ' -would be nice. But destroying >>>>> and rewriting the whole menubar ought to be fast enough. It is >>>>> intuitive (using rplc) and totally flexible. >>>>> >>>>> Ian >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 3:25 PM, chris burke <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >> My form takes a noticeable time to repaint. I don't want to do that. >>>>> > >>>>> > I am a little surprised by this. Does your repaint include some >>>>> computation >>>>> > that could have been done up front? >>>>> > >>>>> >> But I see with JQt it's possible to define two separate forms for the >>>>> same >>>>> > app. If one of them specifies no menus, it lets you see the menus of the >>>>> > other form – even when it's got focus! >>>>> > >>>>> > How did you do that? >>>>> > >>>>> > I suppose we should allow redefining the menubar on the fly. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On 13 September 2015 at 05:32, Ian Clark <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> >> My form takes a noticeable time to repaint. I don't want to do that. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> But I see with JQt it's possible to define two separate forms for the >>>>> >> same app. If one of them specifies no menus, it lets you see the menus >>>>> >> of the other form – even when it's got focus! At least, it does on the >>>>> >> Mac (…under Snow Leopard). >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I conjecture it's possible to split my form into a menu-less and a >>>>> >> menus-only form. The latter will be a lot less pain to recreate – and >>>>> >> easily reconfigured like this: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> wd MYMENUSONLY rplc 'Repeat Last Action' ; 'Repeat "Delete Line"' >>>>> >> >>>>> >> The same trick will let me offer an up-to-the-minute MRU list attached >>>>> >> to the File menu. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Maybe there are gotchers. Maybe it won't work on all platforms. But >>>>> >> it's worth me doing some experiments. Anyone care to try it with >>>>> >> MSWin? (I can see a sticky "fellow traveller" being needed for the >>>>> >> main window, consisting only of a menubar.) >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On Sat, Sep 12, 2015 at 2:49 AM, chris burke <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >> > You can create a new form to replace the old, positioning exactly >>>>> >> > over >>>>> >> the >>>>> >> > old. This should happen fast enough to be unnoticeable. >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > I cannot think of examples in J8, but this was done in J6, for >>>>> >> > example >>>>> >> with >>>>> >> > the Find and Replace dialogs. >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > On 11 September 2015 at 15:56, bill lam <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> >> I think these functions are not implemented. >>>>> >> >> On Sep 12, 2015 4:50 AM, "Ian Clark" <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> > With jwd in JQt, how do I change the text of a given item in an >>>>> >> >> > existing set of menus? >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> > E.g. to state precisely what action I'm offering to Undo / Repeat >>>>> >> >> > / >>>>> >> etc? >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> > An allied problem is to add items to an existing menu, e.g. to >>>>> provide >>>>> >> >> > a MRU facility. >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >> >> > For information about J forums see >>>>> >> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >> >> For information about J forums see >>>>> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >> > For information about J forums see >>>>> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>>> >> >>>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
