it seems my posts to the general forum don't arrive there, so I resend them to programming.
R.E. Boss -----Original Message----- From: R.E. Boss Sent: dinsdag 21 december 2021 12:42 To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [Jgeneral] Vocabulary links I'm also on that list. Perhaps if I've nothing else to do in J, I'll study it, in awe for those who came up with it. R.E. Boss -----Original Message----- From: General <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Jose Mario Quintana Sent: maandag 20 december 2021 19:14 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Jgeneral] Vocabulary links > > I'm a novice at J...my eyes glaze when trying to read the latest > > emails in > the programming forum about the new modifier trains. > > Me too. Add me to that list as well. :D The resurrection of the (c a) and (a c a) made it possible to produce virtually any arbitrary new tacit conjunctions (one could already produce arbitrary tacit adverbs already). That makes the rest of the new/old trains the icing on the cake (which is a little too sweet for my taste). At any rate, it is reassuring to me that Pascal seems to be a big fan of (c a) and (a c a) too. __________________________________________________________________________________ On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 10:05 PM Ian Clark <[email protected]> wrote: > > > I'm a novice at J...my eyes glaze when trying to read the latest > > emails in > the programming forum about the new modifier trains. > > Me too. > > > Have a long hill to climb for sure. > > There's a plateau at: understand most of the verbs in the _z_ locale > (aka stdlib). Some people just stay there. > Enjoy a stroll in the hills – leave the Matterhorn alone. > > On Mon, 20 Dec 2021 at 02:12, P PadilCDX <[email protected]> wrote: > > > I'm a novice at J...my eyes glaze when trying to read the latest > > emails in the programming forum about the new modifier trains. Have > > a long hill to climb for sure. > > > > But thank you for the extensive response. > > > > On 12/19/21 5:43 PM, Ian Clark wrote: > > > Two separate points to make about this: > > > > > > 1. Use of the term "vocabulary" invites terminological confusion. > > > J originally shipped with a Help package of HTML pages, still accessible > > on > > > the web as: https://www.jsoftware.com/help/ Top of each page is > > > the list of links: >> <https://www.jsoftware.com/help/index.htm> > > > << <https://www.jsoftware.com/help/index.htm> Usr > > > <https://www.jsoftware.com/help/user/contents.htm> Pri > > > <https://www.jsoftware.com/help/primer/contents.htm> JfC > > > <https://www.jsoftware.com/help/jforc/contents.htm> LJ > > > <https://www.jsoftware.com/help/learning/contents.htm> Phr > > > <https://www.jsoftware.com/help/phrases/contents.htm> Dic > > > <https://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/contents.htm> Voc > > > <https://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/vocabul.htm> !: > > > <https://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/xmain.htm> Help > > > <https://www.jsoftware.com/help/index.htm> ... > > > Voc is simply a chapter of Dic, aka *The J Dictionary* (JDic) > > > However... > > > NuVoc on J wiki resides in a folder named: Vocabulary I thought > > > then, and still think, this was a mistake which would only sow > > > confusion. But it's too late to fix now. > > > > > > 2. P PadilCDX writes: > > >> I like the format of the old vocabulary page more than the nuvoc > > > page. But that is probably just me... > > > > > > No, it's not just you. A lot of people prefer Voc to NuVoc. And so they > > > should. > > > Anyone who was a J expert prior to 2012 will naturally prefer it. > > > Familiarity with a Help library is the key to its effective use. > > > Moreover… > > > I too like the format of Voc more than NuVoc. For a start, a page fits on > > > one screen (usually). > > > But this doesn't translate to preferring Voc to NuVoc for all purposes, > > > because their objectives are different. > > > > > > ++ Voc, or rather JDic, was written (by KEI and RH) as a language > > standard. > > > The authors have declared (…reference, please?) that any language > > > interpreter conforming to *The J Dictionary* is a proper J. > > > In the 1990s J's audience was the early adopter, already expert in APL, > > who > > > wanted a definitive document to study. During which time they > > > could give > > it > > > their whole attention. > > > The examples were kept few in number, and each example tried to exhibit > > as > > > many features of the primitive under discussion as possible. > > > The needs of the novice user were ignored, or at least > > > subordinated to > > the > > > chief objective: to serve as a formal document. Doesn't the Help package > > > have Pri <https://www.jsoftware.com/help/primer/contents.htm> JfC > > > <https://www.jsoftware.com/help/jforc/contents.htm> LJ > > > <https://www.jsoftware.com/help/learning/contents.htm> Phr > > > <https://www.jsoftware.com/help/phrases/contents.htm> for the novice? > > > > > > ++ NuVoc, by contrast, was originally aimed at a specialized audience: > > the > > > novice engaged in coding a real-world task, who wanted a quick and easy > > > introduction to a given primitive. It was written in babytalk > > > because the > > > reader was focused on his/her own application, with little > > > brainpower to > > > spare for the task of extracting meaning from a slew of big words. > > > Thus, for *Times* (*), each document starts off as follows… > > > *JDic*: * denotes multiplication, defined as in elementary > > > mathematics > > and > > > extended to complex numbers as usual: *…[a forbidding code sample > > follows]* > > > *NuVoc*: The product of two numeric nouns, x and y *…[the > > > simplest code > > > sample follows]* > > > All else was sacrificed to that one objective: serving the novice user. > > And > > > that includes the (Voc) format which both P PadilCDX and I find so > > pleasing. > > > > > > Others made the decision to expand NuVoc to become the all-purpose > > > J reference text – and later, to freeze JDic and update only NuVoc > > > for new > > J > > > features. Initially I was horrified: how could the prime objective > > > of > > NuVoc > > > be preserved if it were to be overloaded like that – and how can > > > it possibly serve as a language standard? (…please challenge if > > > you > > disagree.) > > > > > > However, besides naturally being gratified, I soon saw the wisdom > > > of Jsoftware not trying to ride two horses at once. Apple > > > maintains two matched sets of documentation for competing > > > languages (Objective-C vs > > > Swift) – and even with its mongol hordes it finds the task daunting. > > > > > > But the implications for computer science are profound. J no > > > longer has a > > > language standard – as KEI and RH seem to have intended. Just one > > > for J > > as > > > it was when JDic was frozen (…I've forgotten when that was). It's > > > a safe > > > objective to jettison, because to-date Jsoftware is the sole > > > vendor of a > > J > > > language translator, and is apt to remain so. > > > > > > To sum up: it's quite permissible IMO for JHS and Jwiki to link to JDic > > > where appropriate. JDic (although frozen) hasn't been deprecated: > > > just augmented for a specialized purpose. NuVoc has extensive > > > support for jumping through to JDic wherever this is helpful. > > > > > > But it would be nice to avoid labelling a link "vocabulary" since > > > this > > word > > > is ambiguous and confusing to a novice. > > > > > > On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 at 22:14, P PadilCDX <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >> I noted that in JHS the vocabulary link doesn't point to NuVoc > > >> but to the older vocabulary page. Is that a miss? Several links > > >> in the wiki > > >> also point to old vocabulary page. > > >> > > >> PS. I like the format of the old vocabulary page more than the > > >> nuvoc page. But that is probably just me... > > >> > > >> > > >> Thanks. > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ---- For information about J forums see > > > http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- For information about J forums see > > http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
