It seems to me that the big distinction between J and python where J falls far short is not in the core language but in the addon libraries. I encourage J fans to work away at adding important addons to J!
On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 11:27 AM Eric Iverson <eric.b.iver...@gmail.com> wrote: > A J dictionary type is a good idea and it has been kicked around many > times before. The hard part is not implementing it, but doing a careful and > thorough spec that is backed by a complete model written in J. > > Presented with a full spec that had community buy in, would probably be > followed by implementation. > > On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 11:14 AM Alex Shroyer <ashro...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I agree with Raoul that competing with Python is not a good idea. >> But J can learn from Python's decisions (good and bad) to grow and >> improve. >> In my opinion, numpy is Python's "killer app" because it brings reasonable >> performance without much conceptual overhead. >> The feature of Python that enabled numpy is its extensibility, down to the >> C layer. >> >> There are other good features of Python that J could copy, in particular >> the 'dictionary' data type. >> The array language K has dictionaries, so J might take some inspiration >> from there for integrating them into the language. >> >> Cheers, >> Alex >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 5:30 AM Raoul Schorer <raoul.scho...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> > Just my 2c, but I think that competing with python in general is >> somewhat >> > delusional. I think the key point for expanding J use to have a "killer >> J >> > app". For example, an improved clone of or excellent plugin for >> VisiData ( >> > https://www.visidata.org/) is my idea of a killer app. But someone here >> > may >> > have a better idea? >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Raoul >> > >> > Le lun. 31 janv. 2022 à 03:49, Ric Sherlock <tikk...@gmail.com> a >> écrit : >> > >> > > Yes from a data structure point of view, inverted tables get you a >> lot of >> > > the way (note they're also available in the 'general/misc' addon - >> load >> > > 'general/misc/inverted' ) and I've used them to good effect in my >> > > 'data/struct' addon (https://github.com/tikkanz/data_struct). >> > > I agree that J's arrays are more general, flexible & powerful. But >> when >> > > you're dealing with a tabular data set there is an overhead to keeping >> > the >> > > fields in a table in sync that dataframes can help with. Perhaps it's >> > > something abstracting the structure so you don't have to deal so much >> > with >> > > the mechanics of manipulating it? At least for me :) >> > > >> > > On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 3:28 PM Elijah Stone <elro...@elronnd.net> >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > > https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Essays/Inverted_Table, perhaps? >> > > > >> > > > That said, I think a great strength of j is that data are _not_ >> > > explicitly >> > > > tabular. The associations are defined in an ad-hoc manner as >> needed by >> > > > the programmer. This is also an essential difference between the >> array >> > > > paradigm and the relational paradigm (cf SQL): in the former, >> pointers >> > > > come with implicit context; in the latter, that context must be >> > explicit. >> > > > >> > > > -E >> > > > >> > > > P.S. regarding analysis/optimization: I would love to see it, but >> for >> > > some >> > > > reason everybody is scared of building a compiler because of the >> > parsing >> > > > problem. >> > > > >> > > > On Mon, 31 Jan 2022, Ric Sherlock wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > Yes, I've been thinking that a Dataframes equivalent in J would be >> > > > useful. >> > > > > Most things are already possible with J's arrays, but conceptually >> > > > > DataFrames are well understood by many now, and they make it easy >> to >> > > work >> > > > > with datasets as named fields. >> > > > > I've spent a reasonable amount of time working with Pandas, but >> have >> > > > > recently been using Polars (Rust backend with Python bindings) >> which >> > > > really >> > > > > shines for larger datasets. Performance (especially read/write) is >> > > > awesome, >> > > > > and the LazyFrames which optimise your query/analysis plan make a >> big >> > > > > difference too. >> > > > > I haven't taken enough time to explore it, but maybe Jd is the >> > starting >> > > > > point in this space for J? >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 9:01 AM Michail L. Liarmakopoulos < >> > > > > m.l.liarm...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > >> Hello all, >> > > > >> >> > > > >> I find any parallels between python and J pretty interesting, >> being >> > a >> > > > >> person with some python experience and an interest of the >> > applications >> > > > of >> > > > >> both python and J in mathematical modelling, analytics, >> > computational >> > > > math >> > > > >> and perhaps computational physics too. >> > > > >> >> > > > >> If you'd like to bring some features from the python >> math/analytics >> > > > >> libraries/ecosystem in J, I'd suggest you to look at the >> features of >> > > > three >> > > > >> libraries: >> > > > >> >> > > > >> - numpy (I believe most features are already covered from the >> built >> > in >> > > > >> features of an array language such as J) >> > > > >> >> > > > >> - pandas ( a nice library for manipulating csv files within >> python >> > as >> > > > >> dataframe objects -- see the dataframes from the R language) >> > > > >> >> > > > >> - scipy (a collection of methods and functions ranging from >> solving >> > > > >> numerically: differential equations, evaluating definite >> integrals, >> > > > >> constrained and unconstrained optimization, and I believe >> statistics >> > > > too) >> > > > >> >> > > > >> There is also out there an amazing python library for symbolic >> > > > calculations >> > > > >> (like the ones you can do with Mathematica or WolframAlpha: >> symbolic >> > > > >> evaluation of definite and indefinite integrals, symbolic >> solutions >> > of >> > > > >> diff. equations, symbolic solutions of algebraic and Diophantine >> > > > equations >> > > > >> etc...). It's called sympy. >> > > > >> >> > > > >> But I'm not sure if you'd like J to include symbolic computations >> > too >> > > > or if >> > > > >> the aim of the language is to excel only in numerics, data >> > analytics, >> > > > >> stats, whatever can be quantified pretty much. >> > > > >> >> > > > >> My few cents as food for thought. >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> Best regards, >> > > > >> >> > > > >> --- >> > > > >> Michail L. Liarmakopoulos, MSc >> > > > >> >> > > > >> On Sun, Jan 30, 2022, 20:39 R.E. Boss <r.e.b...@outlook.com> >> wrote: >> > > > >> >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > I copied the first chapter of the book A Journey to Core Python >> > (in >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> >> > > > >> > > >> > >> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1p1uIANh-LFniNNRqjDeeWWd4_-ddEZmz/view?usp=sharing >> > > > >> ) >> > > > >> > and have the question: do we want that J is competitive with >> > Python? >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > If the answer is yes, the next question is: what is the to do >> list >> > > to >> > > > be >> > > > >> > competitive and how long will it take? >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > (And then the unavoidable question: WHY?) >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > Personally I think we must aim on the niches in the market, as >> > there >> > > > are >> > > > >> > the mathematical oriented people, e.g. the broad scientific >> > > community. >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > Then all people experienced in Excel or other spreadsheets or >> > > > calculation >> > > > >> > tools. >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > Schools and universities. Financial and statistical oriented >> > people. >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > What we should do, IMHO, is >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > - to emphasize the strengths of J, >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > - to improve (considerably) the error handling of J, >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > - to admit the steep learning curve, >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > - to facilitate the use of mnemonics instead of primitives (I >> > tried >> > > > this >> > > > >> > afternoon the primitives.ijs for half an hour, but was not >> capable >> > > of >> > > > use >> > > > >> > any mnemonic, not even with >> > > > >> > https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Primitives_to_Mnemonics) >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > - to decide which of the features, benefits or applications (of >> > > > Python) >> > > > >> we >> > > > >> > want J to have. >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > Just my 2 cents. >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > R.E. Boss >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > > >> > For information about J forums see >> > > > http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > > >> For information about J forums see >> > > http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> > > > >> >> > > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > > > For information about J forums see >> > http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > > For information about J forums see >> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> > > > >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > For information about J forums see >> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
