http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2006/s1610616.htm
Australian Broadcasting Corporation
TV PROGRAM TRANSCRIPT
Broadcast: 06/04/2006
Experts debate Papuan issues
Reporter: Tony Jones
TONY JONES: Joining me now from our Melbourne studio is John Martinkus,
an investigative reporter whose essay, 'Paradise Betrayed: West Papua's
Struggle for Independence', was published in the 'Quarterly Essay' magazine.
And in our Sydney studio, Gerard Henderson, author, Fairfax columnist and
executive director of the Sydney Institue. He wrote this week that the present
tensions over Papua need a low-key response.
Thanks to both of you for joining us. And Gerard Henderson let me start
with you, if I can. Can we start with the history of this very troubled
province. Just before the 1969 referendum in Papua, which is described as the
"act of free choice", President Suharto said Papuans who voted against against
integration would be guilty of treason. Was there anything at all legitimate
about that vote?
GERARD HENDERSON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, SYDNEY INSTITUTE: Well, maybe there
wasn't, but the truth was that in Australia the Menzies Liberal Government,
supported by the Labor Opposition, supported by the democratic Labor Party and
the RSL and all the other key figures in Australia, except for the Communist
Party, opposed the integration of Papua - of what we now call Papua into
Indonesia. But they couldn't do anything about it, because the Americans
wouldn't support us and the British wouldn't support us. So it happened. Now I
wish it hadn't happened. As a young student in Year 11 at the time I opposed
it. I supported the majority Australian view. But it happened. It's four
decades later and I don't think the Indonesians are going to leave. I don't see
any sign they're going to leave. I had discussions with Indonesian figures
about it. They say that there were reasons why they left East Timor and they
actually invited Australia into East Timor in the final analysis, but they make
it very clear that they regard Papua as part of the former Dutch east empire,
which they took over and they're not going to get out. So I think any
encouragement for the locals to rise against him in my view is
counterproductive and harmful to the locals, even though I'm sympathetic with a
lot of their causes.
TONY JONES: We'll move onto that broader issue in a little while. Let me
stick with the act of free choice history for a little while. John Martinkus,
was there anything free about the act of free choice at all?
JOHN MARTINKUS, AUTHOR AND JOURNALIST: Absolutely not. What the PM failed
to mention today and what a lot of people don't really know, is that it was as
early as 1962 the Indonesians were sending troops into West Papua, they
basically had control of the province from about 1963 onwards when the Dutch
pulled out. Now the act of free choice took place in 1969. The military had
been there for what, six years by then. They'd intimidated, they'd basically
already started carrying out repressive measures against the people in West
Papua. The leaders who were selected by the Indonesians to vote in that
so-called act of free choice were heavily pressured by the Indonesians, and
this has all been very well-documented by the contemporary journalists working
on the ground at the time. There's a very good book 'The Indonesian Tragedy',
by RJ May, who basically documents the kinds of intimidation and repression
going on at the time to make them vote in that way. And even as recently as
three years ago one of the staffers working for the UN there basically came out
and said it was a whitewash. It was a sham of a plebiscite. That's pretty
widely recognised now.
TONY JONES: I'm not going to dwell too long on the history of that
particular period, but how significant was it do you think, John Martinkus,
that the first contracts for the giant Freeport goldmine, one of the most
profitable in the world were signed only two years before this act of free
choice?
JOHN MARTINKUS: And signed with the Suharto regime. Yes, I think it was
incredibly important and it was one of the main reasons why the Indonesian
takeover - the formalisation of that takeover which basically had already been
in place - was supported so strongly by the United States Government at the
time. And which is why, of course, the Australian Government in that Cold War
environment back then went along with the United States and barely raised any
protest about the incorporation.
GERARD HENDERSON: Well, I don't think that's right. I think the
Australian Government raised a lot of protest at the time. Until it realised
that it couldn't do anything. As Peter Edwards points out in the official war
history the alternative was a military engagement in the region. Now Australia
couldn't sustain that with the Dutch. It just couldn't be done and the
Americans for their own reasons, primarily because of the Cold War and concern
about Indonesia's place in the Cold War, the Americans were not going to go to
war with Indonesia when they had a real problem in Europe with the Soviet
Union. Australia tried as hard as any nation could. Robert Menzies, supported
by the Labor Opposition at the time, tried very hard. But if you read the war
histories, it was impossible. What are we suggesting? Some kind of military
engagement? That Australia's going to go to war with Indonesia?
TONY JONES: That clearly wasn't going to happen. Can I bring us back to
contemporary times? Given what appears to be the corrupt nature of that
particular vote, which I think you acknowledge yourself was not legitimate, do
you think it's wrong of the PM to even suggest today that that was an act of
free will?
GERARD HENDERSON: Well, the PM said as I saw him say, that it was a
United Nations-controlled vote. That is true. The United Nations sanctioned
this. That is true.
JOHN MARTINKUS: But even the United Nations officers who were in charge
of that vote at the time have since come out and said that it was a 'sham', it
was a 'whitewash'. I mean, I'm using direct quotes. I think we really have to
look at the 1969 Act of Free Choice as really one of the major starting points
of all the Papuan grievances. They feel that they were sold out. They were sold
down the river, it was rubberstamped by the UN and this is why. When you're
there, when you go and speak to Papuan leaders there, this is one of their main
grievances. Look, you can go to the most remote village, jungle, OPM camp. You
can go way up in the backblocks and those people there will know the details of
the 1969 Act of Free Choice and the 1962 New York agreement. Now what the PM's
done is he's put it on the table as a fait accompli historically, but it is not
and the people involved in it have refuted it and the Papuans definitely don't
accept it.
TONY JONES: A quick response from Gerard Henderson and then we'll move
on?
GERARD HENDERSON: From 1949 the Government in Jakarta was determined that
all parts of the former Dutch East Indies empire was going to become part of
Indonesia. They finally achieved that in the 1960s and there was no possibility
of anyone overturning it unless the Americans went to war there, which they
were not prepared to do. I mean, you say that people have been let down, but
they can be let down again. You yourself admit in your 'Quarterly Essay' that
when you went to Papua in 2002 when you were speaking to some of the rebel
leaders, they got the impression from you that Australia's policy had changed,
that help was on the way. That we were going to give help to the Papuans and
they would be able to take on and defeat the Indonesians and you yourself
concede that when the rebel leader said that to you, you did not contradict him
and soon after you went to sleep. I have no doubt that you are well-motivated,
as is Senator Kerry Nettle, but the message you are giving to the Papuans is
going to let them down again. Because Australia is not going to go to war
there.
JOHN MARTINKUS: I was merely reporting what I see on the ground and what
I'm told by Papuan people. That was three years ago and that hasn't changed at
all. In fact, it's got worse.
GERARD HENDERSON: But you didn't contradict the misinterpretation. What
you said was misinterpreted by them indicating that Australia had changed its
policy, that Papuans - and you did not -
JOHN MARTINKUS: I didn't say that, but anyway.
TONY JONES: I read that, too, and what I read was there was a certain
amount of intimidation that he felt at being in there with the way things were
misinterpreted by the people he was with, and he was worried, from what I
understood, that they might react badly towards him if he were to actually say
too much.
GERARD HENDERSON: You shouldn't give misleading impressions. Readers can
check it at page 18 of the 'Quarterly Essay'.
TONY JONES: It does take us a bit off the main point.
JOHN MARTINKUS: The point is I'm reflecting in that essay what the
opinions on the ground of the people involved - the OPM, the Presidium leaders,
the students, the activists - these are the people who I went there to
interview to find out what they thought and what they wanted.
GERARD HENDERSON: I accept that.
JOHN MARTINKUS: They believe that because of the separation of East Timor
from Indonesia in 1999 and Australia's role in sending the troops in belatedly
after the destruction.
TONY JONES: OK.
JOHN MARTINKUS: Let me finish.
TONY JONES: Alright.
JOHN MARTINKUS: They believe that that meant they had a chance at
independence and they still believe that. And that was basically the core of
what I was trying to say. They interpret maybe Australia will come and help
them. I mean, and at the time I said it's highly unlikely.
GERARD HENDERSON: But you didn't say it to them.
JOHN MARTINKUS: Of course I did.
GERARD HENDERSON: On your own account, you didn't. But Australia is not
going to go and help them and Australia is not going to go to war with
Indonesia.
TONY JONES: Let me put this in the form of a question to John Martinkus.
Because the conclusions reached by the Australian, the Dutch, the US
Government, the United Nations and even the East Timorese Foreign Minister,
Jose Ramos-Horta, is that only autonomy or some sort of autonomy is possible.
So is it wrong now for anyone to encourage the Papuans to think otherwise?
JOHN MARTINKUS: Now, that opinion over whether the Papuans should accept
the offer of autonomy made back in 2001, now that has to be viewed in terms of
what's happened since. I mean, since then, basically the autonomy law - as it
was proposed back then, as it was passed back then - has been more or what
gutted by Megawati's presidential decree in January of 2003. They've basically
squashed the powers of the Papuans People's Assembly by dividing the province
into three separate provinces. Now that's going ahead and elections were held
for that this March. Now that sent a very, very clear picture to the people of
Papua that the Indonesians are not honouring their obligations under autonomy,
that there will be none of the 80% of oil and gas revenues that were promised
to the people of Papua and that money was supposed to flow back into Papua. Now
that hasn't happened. There's been reports done in 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005
saying that only 10% of the recommendations have been implemented. Basically
now the Papuans on the ground are seeing autonomy is not being implemented.
They've been sold a dud. There's not one iota of it has been pushed through.
Their own leaders have been sidelined, they're being sidelined by leaders put
in place by the Indonesian bureaucracy, which is still milking the money out of
the province.
TONY JONES: Gerard Henderson, if that's right - let me bring Gerard
Henderson back in here. If that's right if the original autonomy proposals are
falling in a heap, if no-one believes in them, isn't it now beholden on the
Australians, the Americans, the Dutch and others to actually make sure that
special autonomy plan gets back up and running?
GERARD HENDERSON: Sure, but what's overlooked in the previous comment is
that other developments have been that in Aceh under President Yudhoyono,
autonomy has gone very well. I mean, President Yudhoyono is probably the best
leader Indonesia is going to have in our lifetime. Certainly I don't think it
will be any better. JOHN MARTINKUS: But also - GERARD HENDERSON: Can I just
finish? I didn't interrupt you. Autonomy has worked in Aceh. If you're going to
say it hasn't worked in Papua it might be for other reasons. It has worked in
Aceh.
TONY JONES: That remains to be seen, but it is going ahead.
GERARD HENDERSON: I think it's important that the Australian Government,
the Americans and others talk to Jakarta. But you're more likely to be able to
talk to Jakarta if you talk in the way that John Howard and President Bush is
talking. If you talk in that way about Papua being autonomous within Indonesia,
rather than running the line that the Greens in Australia are running, the
extreme left in Australian is running. The 'Age' in Melbourne is flagging that
somehow there should be an independent movement, because it won't happen. And
what will happen is that many Papuans will get killed and will die in the
process, as people who have their heart on their own sleeves but not on other
people's sleeves running around saying how noble they are when people are going
to be dying in Papua. Because whether we like it or not - and I would have no
problem if Papua were independent - but it's not going to happen.
TONY JONES: John Martinkus?
JOHN MARTINKUS: Well, it's very funny. I mean, it's an enormous sense of
deja vu. We could have been having this argument about East Timor in '98 or any
time prior to that. I believe Henderson had those opinions back then.
GERARD HENDERSON: No I didn't, actually. I was critical of the Suharto
regime. I wrote an article about it in the 'Sydney Morning Herald' in 1994 and
I can give you that source if you want it. If you're interested in facts, I'll
send it to you.
TONY JONES: Let's get beyond personal reflections on each other and move
onto the actual issue.
JOHN MARTINKUS: The issue is the Papuan independence movement is not
going away. The people in Papua have rejected autonomy. They have been calling
for the last four or five years for the demilitarisation of Papua as a first
step towards any kind of resolution. That's been firmly rejected by Jakarta
over and over again.
TONY JONES: Can I just interrupt you there, because you have reported
quite extensively on a pattern of abuse and behaviour by the Indonesian forces
which does mirror what happened in East Timor before the independence vote.
JOHN MARTINKUS: Absolutely.
TONY JONES: Tell us a little bit about what you've discovered?
JOHN MARTINKUS: Well, what we're seeing is the establishment of militias,
both as ancillaries to the military there.
TONY JONES: Well, Gerard Henderson, we do seem to have lost the line
there for a minute. Let me go to you on this question. If there are militias
being established in Papua in the same way as they were in East Timor, what can
this Government actually do about it?
GERARD HENDERSON: Well firstly I support what the Immigration Department,
not the Government, did about the asylum seekers. I think that was the right
move but it creates a lot of problems for Australia and for other nations. But
I mean, all Australia can do is with the important support of the United
States. Bear in mind Dr Rice was in Indonesia a couple of weeks ago and had a
very successful visit. With the support of the United States who are very
influential in the region still, and the British, and the Dutch, is to put
pressure on Jakarta. There is no other way to do it and in a sense, that's what
happened in East Timor in the end. There's got to be borne in mind that the
Australian Defence Force went into East Timor at the invitation of the
Indonesian Government. We didn't invade it. We went in at their invitation
because of diplomatic work, primarily pressure from the United States, but with
the support, with the military leadership of Australia and the support of the
United Nations. There is no other alternative. As John Martinkus points out in
his own publication, the Papuans don't have the military force to make even a
slightest dent on the Indonesian armies.
TONY JONES: I've got to interrupt you there. We appear to have got at
least the image of John Martinkus back. I don't know whether we can hear your
voice. We did interrupt you before. Can you hear what I'm saying and can you
speak to us?
JOHN MARTINKUS: Yes, I can hear what you're saying and I could also hear
what Mr Henderson was saying. I disagree with him strongly. There is a lot more
the Australian Government can do. For one thing we can recommend to the United
States and also implement ourselves, cease military training. Why are we back
working with the TNI again when the same pattern of abuses is taking place in
Papua which is taking place in Timor, which was the reason why we cut off
training and cut off military links in the first place and the same with the
Americans. Now I mean, what Australia has to do - and I think what the United
States should be doing and I think what Jakarta should be doing - is actually
trying to look to some kind of solution to this problem instead of trying to
sweep it under the carpet which is all this Government's trying to do, and all
the Americans are trying to do and all the Indonesians are trying to do.
GERARD HENDERSON: It was the Australian cooperation with the Indonesian
Army that actually facilitated the peace enforcement procedures in East Timor
because there were contacts at military levels. These contacts have certain
values.
TONY JONES: I'm sorry to say we've got serious technical problems. I'm
sorry, John Martinkus, we've got serious technical problems with the line to
you. It's causing all sorts of problems with the voice. We're going to have to
end it there. I'm really sorry about that. I'm sorry, Gerard Henderson, to have
interrupted you as well. We'll have to move on. Thank you to both of you for
joining us.
GERARD HENDERSON: Thank you.
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