Nggak bisa bantah apa yang dibilang Puin tahun 2001..
--- In [email protected], "hadingrh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > hehehe .. scientist plinplan dong > > > > Robert Hoyland : > the historical memory of the Muslim community is more robust than some > have claimed. > John Burton: > What we have today in our hands is the Mushaf of Muhammad. > > --- In [email protected], "hadjar_wish" <hadjar@> wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "hadingrh" <hadingrh@> wrote: > > > > > > ucapan puin yang paling mutakhir adalah yang ini : > > > > Omongan Puin yang muttakhir? > > > > Interpiunya di Le Monde diterbitkan akhir tahun 2001 dan dia belum > > mencabut omongannnya itu.. > > > > > > > "The important thing, thank God, is that these Yemeni Qur'anic > > > fragments do not differ from those found in museums and libraries > > > elsewhere, with the exception of details that do not touch the Qur'an > > > itself, but are rather differences in the way words are spelled. This > > > phenomenon is well-known, even in the Qur'an published in Cairo in > > > which is written: > > > Ibrhim next to Ibrhm, Quran next to Qrn, Simahum next to Simhum > > > > > > > > > Tidak ada bukti bahwa al-Mushaf yang di Istambul dan tempat lain > > manapun memang usmaniyah.. > > > > "attributed" "ascribed"... > > > > Tidak terbukti. > > > > > > > > > > dan mungkin jusfiq tidak pernah mengutip koleksi copy lain, yg > > > sebenarnya lebih tua dari yg ditemukan di sanaa .. > > > yaitu : > > > A copy attributed to Caliph `Uthman bin `Affan, Amanat Khizana, > > > Topkapi Saray, Instanbul, no. 1; > > > - Another copy attributed to Caliph `Uthman, Amanat Khizana, Topkapi > > > Saray, no. 208. This cope has some 300 folios and is missing a portion > > > from each end; > > > - Another ascribed to `Uthman at Amanat Khizana, Topkapi Saray, no. > > > 10. (83 folios and contains notes naming the scribe) > > > - Another attributed to `Uthman at the Museum of Islamic Art, > > > Istanbul. This is dated to the second half of the first century; > > > - Attribute to Caliph `Uthman, 353 folios; > > > - A large copy with 1000 pages, written between 25-31 AH at Rawaq > > > al-Maghariba, al-Azhar, Cairo; > > > - Another attributed to `Uthman, The Egyption Library, Cairo; > > > - Mushaf ascribed to Caliph `Ali, Muzesi Kutuphanesi, Topkapi Saray, > > > no. 36E.H.29 (147 folios); > > > - Another two ascribed to `Ali, Amanat Khizana, Topkapi Saray, no. 33 > > > (48 folios) and no. 25E.H.2 (414 folios); > > > - Ascribed to Caliph `Ali, Raza Library, Rampur, India, No. 1 (343 > > > folios); > > > - Ascribed to Caliph `Ali, Sana, Yemen; > > > - Ascribed to Caliph `Ali, al-Mashhad al-Husaini, Cairo; > > > - Ascribed to Caliph `Ali, Najaf, Iraq (if it hasn't been bombed by > > > the US by now); > > > - Ascribed to Hussain b. `Ali (d. 50AH), Mashhad, Iran; > > > - Ascribed to Hasan b. `Ali, Mashhad, Iran, no. 12; > > > - Ascribed to Hasan b. Ali, Najaf, Iraq; > > > - A copy, most likely from the early first half of the first century, > > > in the Egyption Library, Cairo, no. 139 Masahif; > > > - Ascribed to Khudaij b. Mu`awiya written in 49 AH, Amanat Khizana, > > > Topkapi Saray, no. 44; > > > - A mushaf in Kufic script penned in 74AH, Amanat Khizana, Topkapi > > > Saray, no. 2 (406 folios); > > > - A copy scribed by al-Hasan al-Basri in 77AH, the Egyption Library, > > > Cairo, no 50 Masahif; > > > Also, the Bibliotheque Nationale de France has some 5000 folios from > > > different manuscripts.... > > > > > > > > > dokumen2 diatas much greater significance dibanding temuan di > sanaa ... > > > > > > John Burton: > > > What we have today in our hands is the Mushaf of Muhammad. > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "hadjar_wish" <hadjar@> wrote: > > > > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/proletar/message/195320 > > > > > > > > Saya kutip kembali: > > > > > > > > "His examination revealed unconventional verse orderings, textual > > > > variations, and rare styles of orthography which diverges from the > > > > authorised later version, refuting the assertion that the Qu'ran is > > > > the pure unadulterated word of God. The scriptures were written > in the > > > > early Hijazi Arabic script, matching the pieces of the earliest > > > > Qur'ans known to exist. There were also versions very clearly > written > > > > over even earlier, faded versions. What the Yemeni Qu'rans indicated > > > > was an evolving text rather than a text fixed since the death of the > > > > Islamic prophet Muhammad in 632 CE." > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "hadingrh" <hadingrh@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > hehehe ... apa kamu ngerti apa yg kamu masalahkan ? > > > > > bukan cuman makna, tapi ayatnya tidak berubah ... hanya cara > > penulisan > > > > > > > > > > apa kamu menuntut agar pada waktu itu sudah ada eyd (ejaan yg > > > > > disempurnakan) ? > > > > > mungkin kamu tertarik jg mempermasalahkan 'entot tjahyadi' dengan > > > > > 'entot cahyadi' sbg orang yg berbeda ? .. > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "hadjar_wish" <hadjar@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jadi, Allah fiktif yang digambarkan dungu, buas, kejam, > ganas dan > > > > > > biadab oleh al-Mushaf itu tidak bisa - tentu saja - memenuhi > > > janjinya > > > > > > untuk menjaga am-Musahf itu. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "hadingrh" <hadingrh@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sebuah gaya tulisan atau spelling means nothing karena tidak > > > merubah > > > > > > > makna samasekali > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "hadjar_wish" <hadjar@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Omongan Puin ini jelas bilang: ada bedanya. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dan omongan ini diperjelas dari kutipan yang lain.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "hadingrh" <hadingrh@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bang puin bilang: > > > > > > > > > "The important thing, thank God, is that these Yemeni > > Qur'anic > > > > > > > > > fragments do not differ from those found in museums and > > > > libraries > > > > > > > > > elsewhere, with the exception of details that do not > > touch the > > > > > > Qur'an > > > > > > > > > itself, but are rather differences in the way words are > > > spelled. > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > > phenomenon is well-known, even in the Qur'an published in > > > > Cairo in > > > > > > > > > which is written: > > > > > > > > > Ibrhim next to Ibrhm, Quran next to Qrn, Simahum next to > > > Simhum > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Burton: > > > > > > > > > What we have today in our hands is the Mushaf of Muhammad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > jadi kesimpulannya, quran itu sudah solid.. tidak > > terbantahkan > > > > > bahwa > > > > > > > > > itu benar2 kalam Ilahi.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > jadi tidak ada ruang lagi untuk memperebatkan lagi > > > > keotentikan al > > > > > > > > quran.. > > > > > > > > > bahwa quran jaman onta sama dengan jaman dimana orang > dungu > > > > > > sudah bisa > > > > > > > > > ngepost email di kampung petar ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > berikut komentar dari para ilmuwan lainnya: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Moore > > > > > > > > > Dr. Moore was a former President of the Canadian > > > Association of > > > > > > > > > Anatomists, and of the American Association of Clinical > > > > > > Anatomists. He > > > > > > > > > was honoured by the Canadian Association of Anatomists > > > with the > > > > > > > > > prestigious J.C.B. Grant Award and in 1994 he received the > > > > > Honoured > > > > > > > > > Member Award of the American Association of Clinical > > > Anatomists > > > > > > "for > > > > > > > > > outstanding contributions to the field of clinical > anatomy." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "For the past three years, I have worked with the > Embryology > > > > > > Committee > > > > > > > > > of King cAbdulaziz University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, > > helping > > > > > > them to > > > > > > > > > interpret the many statements in the Qur'an and Sunnah > > > > > referring to > > > > > > > > > human reproduction and prenatal development. At first > I was > > > > > > astonished > > > > > > > > > by the accuracy of the statements that were recorded in > > > the 7th > > > > > > > > > century AD, before the science of embryology was > > established. > > > > > > Although > > > > > > > > > I was aware of the glorious history of Muslim > scientists in > > > > > the 10th > > > > > > > > > century AD, and some of their contributions to Medicine, I > > > knew > > > > > > > > > nothing about the religious facts and beliefs contained > > in the > > > > > > Qur'an > > > > > > > > > and Sunnah."[2] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At a conference in Cairo he presented a research paper and > > > > stated: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify > > > statements > > > > > > in the > > > > > > > > > Qur'an about human development. It is clear to me that > these > > > > > > > > > statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allah, > > > > > > because most > > > > > > > > > of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries > > > later. > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > > proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of > > > God, or > > > > > > > > > Allah." [1] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Professor Moore also stated that: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "...Because the staging of human embryos is complex, owing > > > > to the > > > > > > > > > continuous process of change during development, it is > > > proposed > > > > > > that a > > > > > > > > > new system of classification could be developed using the > > > terms > > > > > > > > > mentioned in the Qur'an and Sunnah. The proposed system is > > > > simple, > > > > > > > > > comprehensive, and conforms with present embryological > > > > knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "The intensive studies of the Qur'an and Hadith in the > > > last four > > > > > > years > > > > > > > > > have revealed a system of classifying human embryos > that is > > > > > amazing > > > > > > > > > since it was recorded in the seventh century A.D... the > > > > > descriptions > > > > > > > > > in the Qur'an cannot be based on scientific knowledge > in the > > > > > seventh > > > > > > > > > century..."[1] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > E. Marshall Johnson > > > > > > > > > Professor and Chairman of the Department of Anatomy and > > > > > > Developmental > > > > > > > > > Biology, and Director of the Daniel Baugh Institute, > Thomas > > > > > > Jefferson > > > > > > > > > University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA. > > > > > > > > > Author of over 200 publications. Former President of the > > > > > Teratology > > > > > > > > > Society among other accomplishments. Professor Johnson > began > > > > > to take > > > > > > > > > an interest in the scientific signs in the Qur'an at > the 7th > > > > Saudi > > > > > > > > > Medical Conference (1982), when a special committee was > > > > formed to > > > > > > > > > investigate scientific signs in the Qur'an and Hadith. At > > > first, > > > > > > > > > Professor Johnson refused to accept the existence of such > > > > > verses in > > > > > > > > > the Qur'an and Hadith. But after a dicussuion with Sheikh > > > > > Zindani he > > > > > > > > > took an interest and concentrated his research on the > > internal > > > > > > as well > > > > > > > > > as external development of the fetus. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "...in summary, the Qur'an describes not only the > > > development of > > > > > > > > > external form, but emphasises also the internal > stages, the > > > > stages > > > > > > > > > inside the embryo, of its creation and development, > > > emphasising > > > > > > major > > > > > > > > > events recognised by contemporary science." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "As a scientist, I can only deal with things which I can > > > > > > specifically > > > > > > > > > see. I can understand embryology and developmental > biology. > > > > I can > > > > > > > > > understand the words that are translated to me from the > > > > > Qur'an. As I > > > > > > > > > gave the example before, if I were to transpose myself > > > into that > > > > > > era, > > > > > > > > > knowing what I do today and describing things, I could not > > > > > describe > > > > > > > > > the things that were described... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see no evidence to refute the concept that this > individual > > > > > > Muhammad > > > > > > > > > had to be developing this information from some > place... so > > > > I see > > > > > > > > > nothing here in conflict with the concept that divine > > > > > > intervention was > > > > > > > > > involved in what he was able to write..." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Joe Leigh Simpson > > > > > > > > > He is the President of the American Fertility Society. > > He has > > > > > > received > > > > > > > > > many awards, including the Association of Professors of > > > > > > Obstetrics and > > > > > > > > > Gynaecology Public Recognition Award in 1992. Like many > > > others, > > > > > > > > > Professor Simpson was taken by surprise when he discovered > > > > > that the > > > > > > > > > Qur'an and Hadith contain verses related to his > specialised > > > > > field of > > > > > > > > > study. When he met with Sheikh Abdul-Majeed A.Zindani, he > > > > > > insisted on > > > > > > > > > verifying the text presented to him from the Qur'an and > > > Hadith. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "... these Hadiths (sayings of Muhammad) could not > have been > > > > > > obtained > > > > > > > > > on the basis of the scientific knowledge that was > available > > > > at the > > > > > > > > > time of the 'writer'... It follows that not only is > there no > > > > > > conflict > > > > > > > > > between genetics and religion (Islam) but in fact religion > > > > > > (Islam) may > > > > > > > > > guide science by adding revelation to some of the > > traditional > > > > > > > > > scientific approaches... There exist statements in the > > Qur'an > > > > > shown > > > > > > > > > centuries later to be valid which support knowledge in the > > > > Qur'an > > > > > > > > > having been derived from God." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gerald C. Goeringer > > > > > > > > > Sheikh cAbdul-Majeed A.Zindani met with Professor > > > Goeringer and > > > > > > asked > > > > > > > > > him whether in the history of embryology was there any > > mention > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > > different stages of embryonic development, or whether > there > > > > > existed > > > > > > > > > any embryological texts at the time of the Prophet. Sheikh > > > > Zindani > > > > > > > > > also asked his opinion regarding the terms the Qur'an > > uses to > > > > > > describe > > > > > > > > > the different phases of fetal development. After several > > long > > > > > > > > > discussions, he presented a study at the 8th Saudi Medical > > > > > > Conference: > > > > > > > > > "...In a relatively few ayahs (Qur'anic verses) is > > contained a > > > > > > rather > > > > > > > > > comprehensive description of human development from the > > > time of > > > > > > > > > commingling of the gametes through organogenesis. No such > > > > > > distinct and > > > > > > > > > complete record of human development such as > classification, > > > > > > > > > terminology, and description existed previously. In > most, if > > > > > not all > > > > > > > > > instances, this description antedates by many > centuries the > > > > > > recording > > > > > > > > > of the various stages of human embryonic and fetal > > development > > > > > > > > > recorded in the traditional scientific literature." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Post message: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe : [EMAIL PROTECTED] List owner : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage : http://proletar.8m.com/ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/proletar/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/proletar/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! 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