MS-VC++ is excellent.... if you like writing a lot of code!... I am now
using Borland C++ Builder, which seems to be a Delphi sheep in C++ wolf's
clothing.... (in fact, I have an off the shelf graphing package for C++
Builder using the VCL, that was written entirely in Delphi... the
compatibility seems to work fine; why can't protel offer the SDK in C++
Builder?)  it seems to have the similar RAD methodology which makes things
so fast to make an application from scratch... but there are highly armed
camps on both sides of the efficiency argument which I leave as an exercise
to the reader.....

just like PERL (oh boy... here we go again!), these RADs make extreme
efficiency of the programmer's time (and time to market for an
application).... They allow little code effort for a lot of function bang!
Time to run an application may be more bloated however....

but the magic is in the supporting librarys (where the RAD IDE is the front
end to these libraries).  There are some RADs for PERL under glade or gnome
for unix (and some limited win32) but it hasn't quite caught on yet...  who
knows where this crazy train de-rails...

it all depends, I suppose, on how much power one wishes to exploit.... and
how much code the language (or supporting libraries) needs to exploit that
power (efficient use of programmer's time)....  C/C++ can inherently be more
powerful with some of its cryptic syntax (but once you learn the
crypticnesses, they're no longer cryptic), yet harder to use (and harder to
find errors)... VB and Pascal are a great beginner's language that
shelters/protects the user a little bit (with type checking et cetera).  If
I wanted a rip snorting application though, I would go with C/C++ and
provide the language independent extensibility I crave...

It's just a matter of hiring the professional <insert
portable,powerful,standardized language here> programmers to make the
Professional Protel application in <insert portable... language here> and to
provide the professional language independent extensibility with dynamic
(not fixed, 16 part fields) properties and widgets in protel....  It
behooves Protel to use a portable language if they wish to make less painful
migrations....

hmmm.....   perhaps it may be a matter of time before C++ Builder is ported
to linux too... ;-)

Cheers,
-chris

P.S. perl is available/ported on the following platforms and OSs (why?
because it was written in C which seems to be a standard for some of these
platforms):

[Acorn] [AIX] [Amiga] [AS/400] [Apple] [AtheOS] [BeOS] [BSD] [BSD/OS]
[Compaq] [Cygwin] [Concurrent] [Debian] [DG/UX] [Digital] [DEC OSF/1]
[Digital UNIX] [DYNIX/ptx] [EPOC] [FreeBSD] [Guardian] [HP] [HP-UX] [IBM]
[IRIX] [Japanese] [JPerl] [Linux] [LinuxPPC] [LynxOS] [Macintosh] [Mac OS]
[Mac OS X] [MachTen] [Minix] [MinGW] [MPE/iX] [MS-DOS] [MVS] [NetBSD]
[NetWare] [NextStep] [Novell] [NonStop] [NonStop-UX] [OpenBSD] [OpenLinux]
[ODT] [OpenVMS] [OS/2] [OS390] [OSR] [Plan 9] [PowerMAX] [Psion] [QNX]
[Redhat] [Reliant UNIX] [RISCOS] [SCO] [SGI] [Sequent] [SINIX] [Slackware]
[Solaris] [Sun] [Stratus] [SuSE] [Tandem] [Tru64] [UNIX] [U/WIN] [Unixware]
[VMS] [VOS] [Win31] [Win32] [WinCE] [WinMe] [Windows 3.1] [Windows
95/98/Me/NT/W2K]

-----Original Message-----
From: Rene Tschaggelar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 8:58 AM
To: Protel EDA Forum
Subject: Re: [PEDA] Public open-source PCB software. was-> Changes to
the Protel company name


I admit Protel is far too slow in implemeting long requested features such
as
righthand mouse panning in the schematic. It would be simple to implement -
I did
such things in other contexts. I don't have an idea about Protels agenda and
time
allocations.

Delphi or Protel are complex packages, that take at least 6 month continous
use until
you're at a useful level. The only comparison I have is doing demos for
fellow users.
And when fulltime VC++ users admit Delphi is faster, then be it so.

I recently had a little introduction (6 month, weekly) into CATIA, a 3D
contruction
package. I was far from fluent, just grasped to possibilities, therefore I
cannot
compare it to Autocad 3D of which I've seen a few demos.

Once you have a whatever package and used it for 6++ month you're stuck with
it, not
because of the few (perhaps dozend) grands you spent for the purchase of it
but for
the time you already spent. Should it happen that you then repeatedly hear
from colleagues who
use similar tools that theirs is better on the whole run, you might consider
switching
after this or the other project that is ongoing. Where do you get the time
to
learn from ?

Well anyway, in Delphi I found a tool that fullfills all my Windows
programming needs.
Now it is even available in Linux.

Fine for you when you're happy with VC++.
Should you have a question about Delphi and how to solve a particular
problem, mail me
in private.

Rene
--
Ing.Buero R.Tschaggelar - http://www.ibrtses.com


Andrew J Jenkins wrote:
>
> On 11:50 PM 8/7/2001 +0200, Rene Tschaggelar wrote:
> >There is no way to come up to speed on such a project in another language
> >than delphi. Why are the competitiors blown to pieces, not because they
were
> >dummies, they used the wrong tools. The language must be efficient in
development
> >the IDE, meaning RAD has to be efficient. No C++, no nothing except
delphi.
>
> Pardon me, and no offense, but Huh?
>
> Delphi is by no means efficient, unless one is the programmer. Question
is, is the programmer or the customer the one who should enjoy efficiencies?
>
> Delphi, on the other hand (or so I have heard) is easier to learn.
>
> Now, on to the thrust of my response:
>
> I have a temper. I admit that I have a temper. I can be an asshole. I
admit (freely) that I can be an asshole.  I am who I am, both good and bad.
Some despise me, some like me, some tolerate me, and others are simply
amused. But I don't deny it. In fact, though I attempt to slowly remove
those bad traits, and though it is truly a difficult process, and even
though I may never be able to remove all traces of my "bad" side, I never
attempt to lie about who I am or what my faults are. I definitely never say
"I'm just a poor misunderstood nice-guy". What I do say to folks is this: "I
have a temper. However, my temper is rarely provoked unless one displays
offensive behavior first, whether it is by using subterfuge or deception to
manipulate or by saying things which are fallacious or otherwise simply
don't add up. Much as I don't enjoy the process of being an asshole, I will
be, but it can most often be avoided simply by not being one yourself"
>
> To clarify the analogy, Delphi and its royal supporters (as opposed to
normal supporters) rarely if ever ADMIT Delphi's intrinsic faults, and
therefore often attempt to HIDE them and hide behind rote banners
(generally, the rote banners are a sign of the supporter's relationship to
"nobility". This is a problem not because of the intrinsic problems, but
because of the subterfuge that accompanies those flaws (Much like what
is/was so often expeienced by PC users when encountering MAC
users...anywhere in the world... Hence, when confronted with serious
core-level flaws, the Delphi community hides behind the catch-phrase of the
shareware community, "it's a difficult job", one which no-one else enjoys.
>
> Until the Delphi community (Specifically Protel programmers and those who
protect them with posts like the above) owns up to it's short-coming(s), the
problems cannot be properly addressed, and we'll continue to have these
periodic cathartic and divisive threads, endlessly and pointlessly avoiding
the problems and their solutions in favor of virtual-graphite wars. $5 for
every piece of chewing gum.  As a Protel user, is that what you want?
> (ex: panning prob. Instead of consolidating under one banner, we instead
chose to have a flame war for literally years, until one side finally won,
and Protel attacked and seems to have solved the problem but it took years,
instead of months, IMO all because of pride in Delphi amongst some of the
user community)
>
> I understand and appreciate the many of the benefits of the Visual-Pascal
(Delphi) model, but really...
> Are you suggesting that when discussing code efficiency, Protel (Delphi)
can even be compared to an application like AutoCad (C)...Or are you simply
staying within similar product lines, like Lotus Notes and MS Office???
>
> regards,
>
> aj

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