My 2c. The "use python to drive C and Java tests" was a good idea at the time (because we only had C, Java and Python and python is the most productive language to write tests in) and has served us well, but we have outgrown it.
There are two things we need: - good unit tests for each binding/component that can be built/run easily by developers in that language without excessive dependencies. - good interop testing between *all* the components, not just a "special relationship" between C, Java and python. There is already work underway on an AMQP-focused (rather than language focused) qpid interop test suite to cover all Qpid components. So I would suggest reviwing the existing python tests to identify tests that are *really* unit tests, and tests that are really about AMQP. The latter to be adopted into the Qpid interop test framework to benefit all the languages/components we care about. I suspect a lot of them are the latter. I see no issue with using python as part of the driver for C tests since C is such a painful language to work with, but that shouldn't require the entire python binding. That does mean that you need to check-out, build and run tests in 2 repos for any given task: the component repo and the tests repo. On the up side you *don't* have to check out and build every binding to work on the core: just the core and the tests (which depends on the bindings, which can be installed) That actually helps in the sense that if you make core changes that break released bindings you know about it before you ship. Cheers, Alan. On Wed, 2015-08-19 at 19:05 +0100, Robbie Gemmell wrote: > On 19 August 2015 at 13:05, Flavio Percoco <fla...@redhat.com> wrote: > > On 19/08/15 12:34 +0100, Robbie Gemmell wrote: > > > > > > I can see certain benefits to such a separation, mainly for folks > > > interested only in the bindings, but if I'm honest I'm not sure > > > those > > > outweigh the additional complication it seems it may bring in > > > some of > > > the other areas. > > > > > > I think they actually do but probably because I don't see any > > complications being added to proton-c itself but rather a > > simplification of the current structure. > > Ken has covered much of what I was thinking about. > > > It'll bring a more intuitive > > structure to the project rather than having the bindings under > > `proton-c`, which is very confusing :) > > > > I can see having them elsewhere might be more intuitive, especially > for folks who dont know or care that they are using proton-c under > the > covers while using them. > > I guess if they were kept in-tree they could be moved at to the top > level to make them more obvious but then presumably the same might > need done for the others, and that still wouldn't make a difference > to > the various other points in your suggestion. > > > > The python bindings are slightly more interesting than the others > > > due > > > to being at the heart of the python based tests that exist for > > > proton-c and proton-j, so splitting them out actually creates a > > > bit of > > > a circular dependency with proton / its tests (especially when > > > having > > > the submodules in both repos). You mentioned thinking we wouldn't > > > need > > > to track the binding within the proton tree (but could do so to > > > prevent a breaking change for existing things), and instead use > > > an > > > installed version of the bindings. In practice I guess it would > > > be > > > about the same in terms of updating proton-c and the bindings and > > > the > > > related python-based tests at the same time (adding an install, > > > or > > > possibly two, in the middle). > > > > > > It won't be the same. > > I just meant in terms of which files people would need to update it > would be similar, but with some install steps added (depending on > what > you change), not any effect on what is or isnt being tested. > > > The reason is that we're currently ensuring that > > proton-c doesn't break the bindings 'master' version. This is being > > done on the assumption that bindings will be released along with > > proton-c and there'll be a binding release per every proton-c > > minor. > > > > The above is not an ideal scenarion in my opinion. Ideally, we'd > > have > > a release of the bindings that will be able to track several minor > > releases of proton-c, but this will probably come later once proton > > -c > > stabilizes a bit more. However, I believe the current structure > > allows > > for breaking changes to land because it tests things against master > > only rather than making sure older, still maintained, versions are > > not > > being broken. > > > > Going back to the proposal, I think the circular dependency is not > > really necessary and we could just have the python bindings being > > installed. The installed version can either be the current master > > branch (pip knows how to install from git) or the latest stable > > version. Furthermore, we could even have a list of versions that we > > want to test against. > > > > To expand the above issue a bit more, I think it's wrong to have > > the > > python tests as part of the in-tree tests for proton-c. Ideally, > > this > > should be the work of a CI system responsible for doing integration > > tests. Not saying we should solve this issue now but the proposed > > structure allows for it to happen. > > > > > Releasing (in terms of source, here at > > > Apache) seems like it would become more 'interesting' though, > > > with > > > potential again for the bindings needing proton-c (+proton-j) > > > updates, > > > but proton-c (+proton-j) needing the bindings updates for updated > > > tests. I guess that might point to splitting the python tests out > > > on > > > their own as well so it depended on both separately. > > > > > > What python tests are you referring to? The ones under > > `tests/python` > > ? > > > > Those are the only ones I know of and those are still in the > > `proton-c` repo. > > Those are the ones. As Ken has largely covered, its important to note > that those exist mostly (entirely?) to test proton-c and proton-j > rather than the python bindings themselves (though given how they > work, they kinda do that implicitly too). Their need of the python > bindings (and in turn proton again) to work however would present > challenges as Ken mentioned. > > > The python bindings access those through the > > submodule for now but yes, I'd agree that eventually, those tests > > could even be on their own. > > > > > Perhaps I'm overthinking this though; how would you see some of > > > those > > > things working? > > > > > > Totally honest? I think Java should have its own tests and let > > python > > alone. Maintaining python2.5 - because that's what the tests > > support - > > plus all the self-written tests libraries and whatnot is a burden > > that > > I think we should not carry. Most of the things being maintained > > under > > the `tests/python` 'package' exists already in the python community > > and are widely used and tests. I know it seems easier to maintain 1 > > test > > suite for 2 bindings rather than 2 but it really isn't. Not in this > > case, at the very least. > > > > I have never really liked the python tests, they are a pain, but they > are for the most part all that exists. Replacing them in each > language > at this point doesnt seem like great fun either though :) > > I'm not sure it affects things too much with regards to splitting > things up, but the tests only use 2.5 still because noone has updated > the jython used to 2.7 yet, that presumably could be done if its > causing an issue. > > > However, based on the current situation, I'd either have the test > > code > > on its own or simply follow the proposed structure and have the > > bindings following proton-c and consuming tests from there. > > > > > I also can't say that I'd be a particular fan of using > > > submodules, > > > most of the things I've read about or tried with them have been a > > > turnoff...but I'm mostly skipping over that for now. > > > > > > In my experience, if done right, they work and they're not hard to > > update/maintain. Circular dependencies are to avoid, agreed. One > > case > > where I've had good experience with submodules is the rustlang. I > > guess giving this a try would tell better. > > > > Thanks for your reply, > > Flavio > > > > > > > > > > Robbie > > > > > > On 18 August 2015 at 08:17, Flavio Percoco <fla...@redhat.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Greetings, > > > > > > > > I'd like to take a chance, now that 0.10 is out, to make a > > > > point in > > > > favor of using submodules rather than having all bindings in > > > > the same > > > > repository. > > > > > > > > I think qpid-proton has reached the point where it's mature > > > > enough to > > > > have some of the bindings promoted to having their own repos. > > > > More > > > > importantly, I believe these bindings are mature enough and > > > > ready to > > > > build a community on their own. > > > > > > > > Lets take the python bindings, for instance. I've been > > > > contributing to > > > > the python bindings quite a bit in the last couple of months. > > > > The > > > > bindings went from depending on cmake for tests to having their > > > > own, > > > > still dependant on proton-test, test suite that is self > > > > -maintained. > > > > > > > > Furthermore, the python bindings went from depending on cmake > > > > to be > > > > built to being self-built using python's internal build system. > > > > It's > > > > still possible - and in fact, it still happens - to build these > > > > drivers running cmake, although it's, in my personal opinion, > > > > not > > > > recommended. > > > > > > > > As you can see from the above, the python bindings depend on > > > > proton-c > > > > but they don't need to live in the same codebase. Therefore, > > > > I've > > > > prepared a small POC to show case this repo structure: > > > > > > > > - https://github.com/FlaPer87/test-python-qpid-proton > > > > > > > > The above repo contains the python-qpid-proton code. As you can > > > > tell > > > > from the commit history, not many changes were required to set > > > > it up. > > > > The relevant bits of this repo, I believe, are the ones related > > > > to the > > > > submodule. The qpid-proton submodule points qpid-proton's > > > > master > > > > branch in the test-python-qpid-proton branch, whereas in the > > > > 0.10 > > > > branch, it tracks qpid-proton's 0.10.x. This is important for > > > > the > > > > bindings to keep track of the right code/release/tests. > > > > > > > > - https://github.com/FlaPer87/qpid-proton/tree/submodules > > > > > > > > The above is a fork of the qpid-proton repo we use already but > > > > rather > > > > than having the python-qpid-bindings in tree, it just tracks > > > > the > > > > master branch. (I created a `submodules` branch because I > > > > didn't want > > > > to mess with the master branch in my fork). > > > > > > > > I don't think tracking the binding in the qpid-proton repo is > > > > necessary but I see how it's useful to avoid introducing > > > > breaking > > > > changes on drivers. To be more precise, I don't think the above > > > > is > > > > necessary because if we are testing bindings in cmake to make > > > > sure we > > > > don't break backwards compatibility, we could simply install > > > > the > > > > latest stable version and test against that, rather than > > > > testing > > > > against the latest binding's master, which could, but > > > > shouldn't, be > > > > broken. > > > > > > > > I wouldn't probably advocate for the above to applied to every > > > > binding > > > > we have since some of them might not be ready for this but I > > > > definitely want to advocate to make this happen for the python > > > > binding > > > > (and other bindings). > > > > > > > > This structure will make it easier to mainting bindings, to > > > > build a > > > > community around these bindings - I contribute more to the > > > > python > > > > binding than proton-c. It'll also help keeping a clean history > > > > for > > > > each project and to issue binding releases, therefore creating > > > > tags for bindings, as needed. > > > > > > > > I get it's worked well so far and probably some of you won't be > > > > happy > > > > with this proposal but, git is powerful enough to support the > > > > above > > > > structure, which is ideal for these kind of projects. Correct > > > > me if > > > > I'm wrong but I believe the current structure also comes from > > > > the old > > > > times when qpid-proton used to be in subversion. > > > > > > > > Hope the above makes sense and I'm sorry for such a long email, > > > > I > > > > should've drunk less coffee. > > > > Flavio > > > > > > > > P.S: I'm more than happy to help setting this up and to bring > > > > it back > > > > if the experiment fails. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > @flaper87 > > > > Flavio Percoco > > > > > > -- > > @flaper87 > > Flavio Percoco
