On Jun 28, 2009, at 6:20 PM, Tom Heath wrote:
Hi Pat,
2009/6/25 Pat Hayes <[email protected]>:
With the sincerest respect, Tom, your attitude here is part of the
problem.
Maybe, along with many other people, I am indeed still stuck in the
mid-1990s. You have permission to be as condescending as you like.
But
still, here I am, stuck. Thoroughly stuck. So no amount of
condescending
"sooo-20th-century, my dear" chatter is going to actually enable me
to get
to a place where I can do what you think I should be doing.
Condescension was never my intention here. My goal was to draw a
comparison that might enable us to learn a lesson from the history of
the Web and use that to help us move forward. As Mark described, over
the course of time more and more tools became available that made it
easier to publish HTML. Presumably these only arose because publishing
HTML was to some degree hard. The Web community has gone through this
process once already; let's learn the lessons from last time and apply
them to publishing RDF so people don't have to be stuck any more.
Um.. I thought that was MY point :-)
Dan
outlined some technical approaches to doing this sort of thing. Some
domain-specific apps already exist that (hopefully) reduce the pain;
it was one of the goals of Revyu.com for example.
I cannot use a
rewrite rule to catch incoming requests, or do whatever you are
talking
about here. I live in an environment where I simply do not have
access at
all to the workings of my server at a level that close to the
metal, because
it is already woven into a clever maze of PHP machinery which is
too fragile
to allow erks like me to mess with it. Some of the best W3C techies
have
taken a look, and they can't find a way through it, either. Maybe
Im in a
special position, but I bet a whole lot of people, especially in the
corporate world, are in a similar bind.
You're talking about two very different groups here. If the right
tools are created then individuals will presumably adopt some
specialised SaaS analogous to say wordpress.com. Corporations are a
different kettle of fish
I work for a small research company which happens to have an ambitious
Webmaster and a Director who is sensitive to visual graphics and Web
image issues. The result is a maze of complex PHP giving users a very
nice experience, but not conducive to transparent use by its
inhabitants. Just from casual Web browsing, I cannot believe that I am
in a very small minority. There are a lot of 'sexy' sites out there
that must be in a similar state. I know that several 'web authoring'
systems produce similar PHP mazes, because Ive tried using them and
then editing the output they produce, an experience rather like
debugging BCPL.
, but just as many built their own Web-serving
infrastructure in the 90s, so they will invest in publishing data to
the Semantic Web if they perceive adequate value (demonstrating that
value is where we need to be working even harder!).
System level access to a server is
quite a different beast than being allowed to publish HTML on a
website
somewhere. I can, and do, publish HTML, or indeed just about any
file I
like, but I don't get to insert code. So 6 lines or 600, it makes no
difference.
But in any case, this is ridiculous. RDF is just XML text, for
goodness
sake. I need to insert lines of code into a server file, and
write PHP
scripts, in order to publish some RDF or HTML? That is insane. It
would
have been insane in the mid-1990s and its even more insane now.
No. This is incorrect. This discussion only applies to the
303-redirect/slash URI pattern. You can avoid this completely by using
the hash URI pattern as someone mentioned (sorry for not crediting
directly, getting hard to navigate this thread).
Yes, of course, and I apologize for overstating the case. Still, the
slash-URI seems to be much more acceptable to many unsemantic Webbies,
who are used to thinking of URIs as being stripped of their post-hash
content at the slightest internet shiver, so don't regard a name
including a hash as something 'real'; and it is the case about which
all the fuss is being made. If the published advice was: always use
hash URI patterns, I would be happy. But the published advice *starts*
with 303 redirects and .htaccess file modifications.
IMO, it is
you (and Tim and the rest of the W3C) who are stuck in the past
here. Most
Web users do not, and will not, write code. They will be publishing
content
in a cloud somewhere, even further away from the gritty world of
scripts and
lines of code than people - most people - are now. Most actual
content
providers are never going to want to even know that PHP scripts
exist, let
alone be obliged to write or copy one.
You've over-interpreted my words here. See above.
If so, I apologise. But think of what Im saying as a cry for help.
There are a lot of people like me, I suspect, who would really like to
help with SW deployment and are willing to write RDFa content, but are
paralyzed by the apparent need to become Web-server hackers in order
to do so. It just feels *wrong*. Your own metaphor is apt:
Martin is exactly right: this is a
MAJOR bottleneck to SWeb adoption. Its up to the people in the TAG
to listen
to this fact and do something about it, not to keep issuing
useless 'best
practice' advice that cannot be followed by 99% of the world.
I think that's overplaying things. It's like saying "stop issuing best
practices for cardiac surgeons because Average Joe can't use those to
help improve his cardiac health".
Well, yes, exactly. Im not a cardiac surgeon, and here I am reading
this stuff that I naively took to be good advice for improving my
cardiac health. It didn't say: For Surgeons Only on the cover. If the
SWeb is going to rely on cardiac surgeons rather then average Joes to
get all that RDFa written, then its never going to happen.
RDF should be text, in documents. One should be able to use it
without
knowing about anything more than the RDF spec and the XML spec. If it
requires people to tinker with files with names starting with a
dot, or
write code, or deploy scripts, then the entire SWeb architecture is
fundamentally broken.
The architecture of the Semantic Web is the architecture of Web. And
just as in the Web we have varied publishing patterns/workflows
(ranging from simple to hard), so we will in the Semantic Web.
But, and this is where this thread started, right now we don't seem to
have any easy ones at all. All my yelling has been to try to get you
guys to take this issue as seriously as I think it deserves to be taken.
Best wishes
Pat
Cheers,
Tom.
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