[chair hat on] Colin, Anders, Standard is about process but also about evaluating the chances to get something actually done. Not guessing the future, but at least reading the evidences you have in front of you.
W3C Recommendations can only happen when there are two interoperables implementations. Implementers in this WG are not supporting the integration of secure enablers in that WG. The chances to get something on that specific topic, here, are low. Thus, as chair, I don’t see any value blocking the rechartering of this WG, discussing indefinitely that topic. Lets be pragmatic, and recharter or extend the Web Crypto on the common consensual basis. I am inviting companies supporting inclusion of secure enablers in the open web platform to create another group. Creating another group means, a chance to 1) give visibility to the work, 2) get on board new people and new W3C members representatives, 3) forces the W3C members to revisit their support or not of specific feature (as per the process, W3C AC representatives need to approve the creation of each new working group). Those arguments are the ones that lead me and the team to suggest to take the secure enablers topic out of Web Crypto WG. Regards, Virginie From: Colin Gallagher [mailto:colingallagher.r...@gmail.com] Sent: mardi 17 mars 2015 07:11 To: Anders Rundgren Cc: Wendy Seltzer; Siva Narendra; Harry Halpin; public-web-security@w3.org; GALINDO Virginie; Charles Engelke Subject: Re: [Web Crypto WG] draft Web Crypto WG charter : for your review and comments Except google code isn't going to exist anymore, because google is pulling it and anyone using it will likely just go to github. Anyway, a focused list wouldn't hurt for those interested in that topic, imho. My four satoshis have been given. On Mar 16, 2015 10:06 PM, "Anders Rundgren" <anders.rundgren....@gmail.com<mailto:anders.rundgren....@gmail.com>> wrote: On 2015-03-17 04:34, Colin Gallagher wrote: My impression was Wendy said some members' non-participation with respect to some idea or another doesn't act as a veto so, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that imply that whether Google or someone else does or does not like an idea, then can't it be included anyway? So the group can proceed... not being concerned about vetoes of legacy security hardware, so basically, I think the answer is... yes. Also, why new working group for secure hardware/tokens/FIDO/etc, when it could be a subgroup or interest group within webcrypto, time permitting (charter expiring on march 31, but will it be extended)? So, one could just call this additional group within webcrypto "secure hardware" and give it a list for those interested. This is just my suggestion. Finally, some of the security issues brought up... no Web Security Principle (maintained), plus, the Same Origin Policy doc is an IETF 2011 item itself in need of some review. Some of this stuff cited is extremely dated. I would further suggest pushing this out for further public review, see if you can some more eyes on the process. Colin, my claim from November last year is still valid: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-security/2014Nov/0032.html The ultra-simple question put there didn't got an answer since there's none to find. Therefore this activity is concluded and no new "smart-card-for-the-web" specifications will be presented, with FIDO alliance as an exception. Well, indirect paths to similar goals have indeed been proposed but have for unclear reasons not been considered or commented on although indirect methods (=bypassing the browser) are already a de-facto standard for mobile devices. Indirect methods are currently discussed and dealt with in places like this: https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=378566 Regards, Anders On 2015-03-12 15:54, GALINDO Virginie wrote: [gemalto representative hat on] gemalto supports to discuss in W3C the usage of the secure services based on hardware or combination > of hardware/software (e.g. secure element, trusted execution environement). We suggest to gather the supporting companies and draft a a charter for a Working Group or an Interest Group. this synchronization can happen in public, preferably on the public-web-security interest group mailing list > (to avoid overloading the web crypto working group mailing list). We had an F2F, then we had discussions and finally we had the public dismissal by Google of the core idea (=support for legacy security hardware in browsers). That is, this activity is concluded and doesn't benefit from being rehashed unless somebody has a silver bullet to offer. Regards Anders Regards, Virginie gemalto ________________________________________ De : Wendy Seltzer [wselt...@w3.org<mailto:wselt...@w3.org> <mailto:wselt...@w3.org<mailto:wselt...@w3.org>>] Envoyé : mercredi 11 mars 2015 22:55 À : Siva Narendra; Harry Halpin Cc :public-web-security@w3.org<mailto:public-web-security@w3.org> <mailto:public-web-security@w3.org<mailto:public-web-security@w3.org>>;public-webcry...@w3.org<mailto:public-webcry...@w3.org> <mailto:public-webcry...@w3.org<mailto:public-webcry...@w3.org>>; Charles Engelke; GALINDO Virginie Objet : Re: [Web Crypto WG] draft Web Crypto WG charter : for your review and comments Hi Siva and all, To follow up on Harry's response, we have great interest in doing more work on secure authentication building on the WebCrypto API. As its Chair has expressed, the WebCrypto WG wants to complete its work with a tight focus on the WebCrypto API and related deliverables. For my part, I look forward to supporting additional groups focused on extending WebCrypto's work, whether based in FIDO or secure hardware. Any member can propose work, and so long as there is interest and a path to getting interoperable implementations, some members' non-participation does not act as a veto. --Wendy On 03/11/2015 05:32 PM, Siva Narendra wrote: Thank you Harry. -Siva *--* *Siva G. Narendra Ph.D. CEO - Tyfone, Inc.Portland | Bangalore | Taipeiwww.tyfone.com<http://Taipeiwww.tyfone.com> <http://Taipeiwww.tyfone.com><http://www.tyfone.com>* *Voice:+1.661.412.2233<tel:%2B1.661.412.2233> <tel:%2B1.661.412.2233>* On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 2:27 PM, Harry Halpin <hhal...@w3.org<mailto:hhal...@w3.org> <mailto:hhal...@w3.org<mailto:hhal...@w3.org>>> wrote: On 03/11/2015 09:59 PM, Siva Narendra wrote: +adding Pub-Web-Security for continuity from the Workshop Thank you Harry. Few questions: 1. Does this mean "FIDO will not be implemented under this WG?" 2. Is the statement "All the web browser implementers do not want to support hardware tokens or anything that is outside of cryptography in within the scope of WG?" or "One browser vendors does not want to support anything other than FIDO?" I think the answer should be: 1) FIDO will not be implemented under the Web Crypto Working Group, but may be pursued in another WG. 2) Hardware token support, both in a manner consistent with a revised Gemalto proposal that takes on board feedback like respect for same-origin policy, should be pursued in another Working Group, but not in the WebCrypto WG. Does that help? The real question now is what the shape and charter(s) of the new Working Groups will be, along with associated time-frames. There have been formal Member submissions neither from the smartcard vendors or FIDO, but lots of informal discussion. However, the workshop did reach consensus that hardware token support should be part of the Open Web Platform, and the W3C would like to follow this up with one or more new Working Groups if the work does not match existing Working Groups. As the discussion in Web Crypto WG shows, it does not match at the time being as the implementors want to focus on algorithm maintenance and finishing version 1.0. If opinions have drastically changed since the workshop, we would like to revisit that consensus via a survey of W3C members but we are hoping there is still consensus and momentum. cheers, harry This is important for the eco-system to know so we can determine if this work should be pursued inside W3C or outside. Thank you, Siva *--* *Siva G. Narendra Ph.D. CEO - Tyfone, Inc.Portland | Bangalore | Taipeiwww.tyfone.com<http://Taipeiwww.tyfone.com> <http://Taipeiwww.tyfone.com><http://www.tyfone.com>* *Voice:+1.661.412.2233<tel:%2B1.661.412.2233> <tel:%2B1.661.412.2233>* On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Harry Halpin <hhal...@w3.org<mailto:hhal...@w3.org> <mailto:hhal...@w3.org<mailto:hhal...@w3.org>>> wrote: On 03/11/2015 07:08 PM, Charles Engelke wrote: I'm new to this WG and W3C in general, so I may be missing points on how this works. But until today that draft did include adding new use cases. Today that was revised to say "the Web Crypto WG will not adress any new use case others then the ones developed with the first version of the Web Crypto API." Did I miss the process that made this change? There was strong objections from members of the Working Group, in particular implementers that are on public record. Thus, while the W3C is still committed do finding an appropriate home for these use-cases and associated standards, it will not be this Working Group. If you have a particular use-case and proposed technical solution that you think would be acceptable to implementers, e-mail the Web Security Interest Group atpublic-web-secur...@w3.org<mailto:atpublic-web-secur...@w3.org> <mailto:public-web-security@w3.org<mailto:public-web-security@w3.org>>. cheers, harry Thanks, Charlie On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 1:13 PM, GALINDO Virginie <virginie.gali...@gemalto.com<mailto:virginie.gali...@gemalto.com> <mailto:virginie.gali...@gemalto.com<mailto:virginie.gali...@gemalto.com>>> wrote: Dear all, You will find here https://www.w3.org/Security/wiki/IG/webcryptonext_draft_charterthe basis of the next Web Crypto WG charter. Based on the feedback on this mailing list, despite the long discussions we had related to new features such as crypto service in secure element, certificate management, authentication management, this charter only adresses the maintenance of the Web Crypto API, and the creation of extension for specific algorithms. What I am expecting from working group participants now is the algorithms they would like to see as extension of the Web Crypto API. This will help us to get a list of the extension we plan to adress in the framework of that specific working group. Please note that there are some discussions in AC forum about restricting activities of any WG that does not work under a valid charter. Our charter will expire on the 31st of March, as such, we should try to get consensus on the new charter as soon as possible (or we will have to ask an extension to W3C director). 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