> It's not a tight coupling, it supports several backends and runs on many platforms, from PC to Rpi
That's not the part that I am claiming is a tight coupling. The tight coupling is between the OpenGL/input bindings for mobile - which could be great, but is incomplete and undocumented - and the UI framework, which I don't like. > I don't think it would take much to have a games API if the community put effort in to it. Exactly - if it has to be an API of Kivy, rather than a separate project built upon it, then that's a tight coupling. On Sun, 19 Mar 2017, 15:47 Leif Theden, <leif.the...@gmail.com> wrote: > I don't follow your idea about mistakes in Kivy. It's not a tight > coupling, it supports several backends and runs on many platforms, from PC > to Rpi. I love kivy and have been using it for a long time. It's not > extremely stable (API changes), but it is light years ahead of pygame in > terms of usability and functionality. > > It may be a bit more cumbersome in Kivy for use with games or extreme > beginners, but I don't think it would take much to have a games API if the > community put effort in to it. > > I'm all for a simple pygame too, and I don't think the comparison to Kivy > is appropriate. Kivy is a framework for touch applications primarily. > On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 9:28 AM Daniel Pope <ma...@mauveweb.co.uk> wrote: > > Something that I think is important is that we should aim to avoid putting > experimental stuff into Pygame. > > I think it's a mistake Kivy made: tightly coupling excellent work in > OpenGL ES bindings and deployment on mobile, with a crude UI framework and > runtime. > > I guess all I'm saying is that we should keep Pygame simple, and let other > projects build the ecosystem on top of it. > > On Sun, 19 Mar 2017, 13:27 Leif Theden, <leif.the...@gmail.com> wrote: > > My comment from the Reddit: > > It has always been my feeling that pygame2 break compatibility with > pygame1 and embrace modern computer features, namely the GPU. Shoehorning > the clunky surface & blit API over sdl2 is a major regression. As is, no > modern game library uses a system like this. > > If it is moved to sdl2, then I would like to see it completely move to a > modern rendering backend, without legacy features. Allow new programmers to > try out shaders, experiment with opencl, maybe include a full featured SDL2 > backend that you can drop into. > > Also: > > * first class gamepad support > * easier to understand sound API > * remove redundant modules like key, mouse, and joystick > * more focus on using the event queue > * more scaffolding, like a drop in event engine, easier setup for the > screen, and game loop with less boilerplate cruft > > At this point pygame1 is useful for quick prototyping and embedded systems > because it can use a framebuffer. Beyond that? I'm not so sure that pygame > can be relevant if it trys to support the old software API. > > Even SDL2 dropped the software API, for the most part. > > pygame_sdl2, guess what, it is trying to be source compatible, and despite > being written in cython and compiled into native code, it is slower than > pygame because of the legacy software renderer sdl2 doesn't optimize like > the original did. To get pygame1 level performance with the legacy API, you > will need to patch sdl2 and maintain a fork that contains optimized > blitting code. > > If you want to avoid a long transition and constant bickering about > breaking changes, then you need to introduce a great feature to get people > to switch. Implement a solid hardware-accelerated Sprite & Groups API and a > "click to distribute" script in the std. lib and you will have people > moving very quickly. > > Also, drop python 2 support. Just my thoughts. > On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 8:04 AM René Dudfield <ren...@gmail.com> wrote: > > There's some more conversation over on the reddit. > > https://www.reddit.com/r/pygame/comments/604cxw/pygame_with_sdl2_proposal_pygame_dev_ren%C3%A9/ > > > On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 8:57 AM, René Dudfield <ren...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Haha. "import pygumm" definitely does sound better. Seriously. > > For *me* pypy is a non goal, and CFFI has some drawbacks. I know pypy also > has plenty of upsides in certain cases... which has been mentioned a lot, > so I won't repeat the good parts about it here. > > > This was my reasoning... > > - CFFI is slower on CPython. CPython is what 99% of people use. > - People don't really contribute if something is in python which > interfaces in C - and they only know python. This has been proven by other > cffi and ctypes projects. Ctypes, and CFFI is a much rarer skill than > standard platform tools. C still happens to be very widely known. > - CFFI has issues on weird platforms... like iOS. > - Cython, numba, numexpr are available. Numpy is not hard to install > any more. These are faster than pypy in throughput, and latency. > - Shaders in GLSL are pretty damn amazing if you need cross platform > CPU/GPU acceleration. > - pypy has jit warm up, jankiness because of jit and GC, and also > doesn't work on weird platforms like iOS. > - Converting everything to shared libraries, and supporting pypy is a > whole lot more effort. However, in general I support sending things > upstream and separating the C/asm code from the python code. So that it's > easier for other people to use them, and there is less maintenance on > pygame itself. However, packaging up shared libraries for multiple > platforms is a lot of work. If those shared libraries are not already > packaged for the 24 platforms, that actually creates maintenance burden as > well. > - pygame_cffi is slower on pypy than on CPython for many apps where > the bottlenecks are already in the C/asm/platform code. Before the pypy > project took funding, forked pygame, removed credits and copyright info, > they were warned that blit was the bottleneck. So, like in a lot of things, > it looks good in their benchmarks, but for real world things it doesn't > perform so well - in many cases. > - pypy uses significantly larger amounts of memory. Which is important > for some older, or low memory systems. > - pypy is slower than CPython where it matters for real time apps. > Where pypy is faster, there are faster extensions available for CPython, > and more appropriate for game JITs. Pypy has many performance cliffs, where > it is really fast for some things after lots of warmup, but then for some > magic un-obvious reason you fall into the valley of slow. The baseline pure > python code performance is always faster in CPython when the jit can't > work. Lower bound performance, and consistent performance turns out to be > really important to real time apps. This means you can write a lot more > code in python, without falling into the valley of slow. > > Happy to take patches for pygame to help make it easier for anyone who > wants to share code. Rect is mainly an SDL thing, with a whole bunch of > niceties mostly at the python integration level. I'm not sure how to > separate any of that really. There are pure python implementations of Rect, > and perhaps you could use that to implement something in RPython for > integration with pypy? But I think perhaps this runs into the case where > integrating with C is slower in CFFI when there are lots of calls which > take very little time. I'm sure the pypy CFFI people could help you there. > > Again, there are definitely some good use cases for pypy, and CFFI. Even > in games. Like in your game. But for me, and for the reasons above, I don't > think it's a good idea for pygame. At the moment. > > > CPython has had some really nice speed improvements recently (since 2015). > Python 3.6 is good, and 3.7 is looking significantly faster for some > benchmarks. > > https://speed.python.org/comparison/?exe=5%2BL%2Bdefault%2C5%2BL%2B2.7&ben=223%2C224%2C225%2C226%2C227%2C228%2C229%2C230%2C231%2C232%2C233%2C234%2C235%2C236%2C237%2C238%2C239%2C287%2C240%2C241%2C242%2C243%2C244%2C245%2C246%2C247%2C248%2C249%2C250%2C251%2C252%2C253%2C254%2C255%2C288%2C256%2C257%2C258%2C259%2C260%2C261%2C262%2C263%2C264%2C265%2C266%2C267%2C268%2C289%2C269%2C270%2C271%2C272%2C273%2C274%2C276%2C275%2C277%2C278%2C279%2C280%2C281%2C282%2C285%2C284%2C283%2C286&env=1&hor=true&bas=none&chart=normal+bars > > Especially with all the FASTCALL work. > https://haypo.github.io/fastcall-issues.html > http://faster-cpython.readthedocs.io/fat_python.html > Accepted CPython jit API pep. > https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0523/ > > > I like this trend where people have decided to work together to get things > into the CPython project, rather than do forks. > > > cheers, > > > > > On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 6:32 AM, bw <stabbingfin...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi, thanks for inviting me to opine. :) > > I like it. But "import pygumm" looks a lot more handsome than "import > pygame2". Seriously. > > Having had much recent experience with a SDL2 implementation (pypy, CFFI, > plus all the SDL2 libs), I found that I would really like to see in the > next generation: > > 1. CFFI wrapper. It is Python, which any of us can write, and it exposes > all of the SDL2 API to programmers, not just what the C developers choose > to expose. This would make pygame superbly extensible. And it would allow > easy ad hoc inclusion of third-party prebuilt libs, something that is a > fairly high bar to hurdle in pygame gen 1. > > 2. CFFI would also make pygame compatible with pypy, something which is > sorely needed in my opinion. One can use optimization tricks to compensate > for CPython's speed limit, but one cannot do many things that are > computationally intensive without farming out to a third-party opaque > library. pypy could let coders do a lot more in Python, when a full blown > physics/geometry/numeric/scientific opaque lib is overkill. > > 3. I had acquired the problem of a slower Rect in pypy, however, because > pygame has a pyd and I'm not spiffy enough to port it to anything but > Python. If CFFI and pypy are an option worthy of consideration, Rect would > be best done in a shared library. Rect is truly a workhorse, and pypy Rects > can't compete with pygame Rects under heavy usage of Rect() and inflate and > move, etc. In pygame most of my time is spent in blit(). In pypy most of my > time is spent in Rect, because the class is 100% Python except for the > four-slot CFFI data structure. > > See what can be done with CFFI and pypy here: > http://pygame.org/project/2957 > https://bitbucket.org/gummbum/gsdl2 > > I made a number of releases and games And a few drop-in tests "import > gsdl2 as pygame", but it ain't perfect. However, I wasn't trying hard for > software rendering compatibility, I was shooting for the new texture > features. As expected, I discovered that all of the software-blit > optimization tricks that I solved in gummworld2 were no longer needed. > > Sounds like a few of you have already put a lot of thought and discussion > into the next gen, and I understand this is something completely different. > I certainly don't propose gsdl2 as a new code base. But it would be grand > if choose to use CFFI. I have no stake in seeing my code transform into a > butterfly, but if parts of it are useful then good. > > Also, an acceptable alternative might be to provide CFFI-compatible shared > libs so that people who want to use pypy have that choice, even if they do > not have the nice pygame API available. If so, anybody could write a > pygame-like API just like I did, and it doesn't need to be maintained by > the pygame core developers. > > > > On 3/18/2017 5:02 AM, René Dudfield wrote: > > Hello, > > so, I've spent some more time reading source code, and investigating SDL2 > and the options a lot. > > I *think* this plan below could be the best way forward for us. > > tldr; > * have a single source SDL1, and SDL2 code base with a compile time > option. (like we have single source py2 and py3). > * move bitbucket/pygame repo to github/pygame. > > > Rather than reimplementing everything, and introducing lots of > compatibility bugs, Instead I think a gradual approach would work better. > I'm starting to think that perhaps pygame_sdl2 by Tom, is not such a great > way forward (for the pygame project, I think it was necessary and good for > Ren'Py). > > A big breaking change is kind of silly for how little resources we have. > Python 3 managed to pull it off... after a decade, and with massive > resources having poured into it. And it only took off once they put > compatibility code back in. Here's the thread where some discussion has > been happening. > https://bitbucket.org/pygame/pygame/issues/174/pygame-20-the-sdl2-edition > > > What we do have is some patches to get the current code base working with > SDL2. > https://bitbucket.org/llindstrom/pygame-1.10-patch > > I think it should be possible with some work to improve an SDL2 > compatibility layer, so that pygame code base can work with either (as a > compile time option). Then newer APIs can be introduced in time, in a non > break-every-program kind of way. Also, it's been proven that 'hardware' > blitting does not need to break SDL1 API compatibility to use hardware > accelerated APIs (Angle, SDL_gpu, [insert 4 or 5 other projects], ...). > > Having a pygame2, or whatever separate repo would also make maintenance > harder. Since for the foreseeable future, we will likely need to do > maintenance releases for this anyway (at least I want to!, and I know other > users of pygame will). > > --- > > For pip uploads, they would continue to be for SDL1, until we can finish > the SDL2 changes, and it works better. There would be no new additions > until compatibility is mostly there. > > The work would progress by slowly adding in compatibility changes whilst > keeping pygame working. By keeping the SDL2 patch set as is, and slowly > reducing the patch set until it is size zero. So we always have a pygame > with sdl2, and a pygame with sdl1 that is producible. Eventually the patch > set will disappear. > > --- > > A pygame2 module would just cause confusion amongst users, and that really > boring 'pygame 1 or pygame 2' type debate would go on, and on like the > "python 2, verses python 3" one did. For me, just avoiding that discussion > for the next decade would be worth it. > > Then there would need to be two sets of documentation on the website. And > two sets of tutorials... and... we'd have 2 of everything to *do*, and 2 of > everything for people to look at. > > Finally, "import pygame2" looks kind of weird. I've grown used to "import > pygame". > > ... > > > > I'm keen to get moving on this. I've been trying to get feedback on the > 'pygame sdl2 addition' issue for the last month, and the issue has been > open since 2013. So I'd like to put a time limit on this decision for one > more week. > > I'd really like to hear back from contributors, and users (everyone). > > > > > ps. Interestingly SDL_gfx has an SDL2 release now. > http://www.ferzkopp.net/wordpress/2016/01/02/sdl_gfx-sdl2_gfx/ > > > > >
