Tarek, Guido, Forgive my grumpy tone..
Looking positive, if we now have a rough consensus that the PEPS might represent some 300+ lines of code... then good - lets get started, that's all that I meant. I'm glad above all, that you noticed that part foremost. If it's a simple case that alternative's to the solutions cannot be considered - because I am grumpy - whatever, then that's something I can live with. I didn't know that proposing a different solution wasn't a good idea. > PS. Submitting a counter-PEP to the peps editors that hasn't been > discussed on the SIG list at all is also a bad move. You really need > to change the way you try to interact with the SIG. Here are the references to the discussions from distutils-sig. In these references you'll see that my interaction with the list was not grumpy but was entirely positive. I feel that I got a fair hearing on distutils list and I had a number of supporters to my proposal. The proposal is in the final stages of being wrapped up. Here are the discussion References that have occurred over the year: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/distutils-sig/2009-November/thread.html November 2009 Archives by thread * Messages sorted by: [ subject ] [ author ] [ date ] * More info on this list... Starting: Sun Nov 1 09:31:46 CET 2009 Ending: Fri Nov 6 00:09:22 CET 2009 Messages: 65 * [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Georg Brandl o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Floris Bruynooghe + [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Georg Brandl + [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon # [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Georg Brandl # [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon http://mail.python.org/pipermail/distutils-sig/2009-October/thread.html # [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon * [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Tarek Ziadé o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Tarek Ziadé o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Eric Smith o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Tarek Ziadé o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon * [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Cournapeau o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Cournapeau * [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Floris Bruynooghe o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Tarek Ziadé o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Tarek Ziadé o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Floris Bruynooghe o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Tarek Ziadé o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Ian Bicking o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Cournapeau o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Cournapeau o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Fred Drake o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Kevin Teague o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Cournapeau o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Cournapeau o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Fred Drake o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Cournapeau o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Cournapeau o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Cournapeau o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Cournapeau o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Cournapeau o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Chris Withers o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Chris Withers o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Chris Withers o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Chris Withers o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Piotr Ozarowski o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Piotr Ozarowski o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Chris Withers o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Chris Withers o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Cournapeau o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Chris Withers o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Cournapeau o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Fred Drake o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Chris Withers o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Fred Drake o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Chris Withers o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Eric Smith o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... Fred Drake o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Cournapeau o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Cournapeau o [Distutils] Alternate static metadata PEP submission... David Lyon http://mail.python.org/pipermail/distutils-sig/2009-August/thread.html [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Tarek Ziadé * [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Hanno Schlichting * [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg P.J. Eby o [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Tarek Ziadé + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Tarek Ziadé + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Tarek Ziadé * [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg David Lyon o [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Jeff Rush + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Ben Finney + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Tarek Ziadé + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg David Lyon + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Eric Smith + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Tarek Ziadé + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Tarek Ziadé + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Chris Withers + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Tarek Ziadé + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Chris Withers * [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg David Lyon o [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Sridhar Ratnakumar + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg David Lyon o [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Alex Grönholm + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg David Lyon + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Floris Bruynooghe + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Ronald Oussoren + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg P.J. Eby + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Chris Withers o [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Chris Withers + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Tarek Ziadé + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Chris Withers + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Tarek Ziadé + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg David Lyon + [Distutils] Static metadata using setup.cfg Tarek Ziadé http://mail.python.org/pipermail/distutils-sig/2009-July/thread.html # [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) David Lyon # [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) P.J. Eby * [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) Eric Smith * [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) David Cournapeau o [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) Jim Fulton o [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) David Cournapeau o [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) Jim Fulton o [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) David Cournapeau o [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) Jim Fulton o [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) Tres Seaver o [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) David Cournapeau o [Distutils] Questions about virtual-python on ubuntu David Lyon o [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) Paul Moore o [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) Jim Fulton o [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) David Lyon o [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) Jim Fulton o [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) David Lyon o [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) Jim Fulton o [Distutils] "setup.py needs to go away" (was [PEP 376] - Open questions on python-dev) David Lyon # [Distutils] Removing the hack from setup.py - Setup.py as a Class, not a Procedure David Lyon # [Distutils] Removing the hack from setup.py - Setup.py as a Class, not a Procedure Jeff Rush # [Distutils] Removing the hack from setup.py - Setup.py as a Class, not a Procedure David Lyon # [Distutils] Removing the hack from setup.py - Setup.py as a Class, not a Procedure P.J. Eby # [Distutils] Removing the hack from setup.py - Setup.py as a Class, not a Procedure David Lyon # [Distutils] Removing the hack from setup.py - Setup.py as a Class, not a Procedure Jean-Paul Calderone # [Distutils] Setup.py as a Class, not a Procedure David Lyon # [Distutils] Setup.py as a Class, not a Procedure Jean-Paul Calderone # [Distutils] Setup.py as a Class, not a Procedure David Lyon [Distutils] introspecting package data Chris Withers http://mail.python.org/pipermail/distutils-sig/2009-June/thread.html * [Distutils] introspecting package data Tarek Ziadé o [Distutils] introspecting package data Chris Withers + [Distutils] introspecting package data Jim Fulton + [Distutils] introspecting package data Chris Withers + [Distutils] introspecting package data Tarek Ziadé + [Distutils] introspecting package data David Lyon On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:18:12 -0800, Guido van Rossum <gu...@python.org> wrote: > David, you have an attitude problem. Your contributions (the post > below is just an example) don't sound healthy to me -- you just > complain and whine and denigrate Tarek's work. In a previous post you > claimed to have had a particular idea first (it doesn't matter which > idea) and you managed to make it sound bad that your idea was > eventually accepted. This is not a productive attitude. > > Surely the problem isn't writing 300 lines of code. The problem is > getting everyone to agree on which 300 lines of code should be > written. That is the problem at hand, and claiming that nothing > happened because no code was written and all that was agreed on > amounts to 300 lines of code is outright demeaning. > > Stop it. You are wearing out your welcome. > > --Guido > > PS. Submitting a counter-PEP to the peps editors that hasn't been > discussed on the SIG list at all is also a bad move. You really need > to change the way you try to interact with the SIG. > > On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 2:29 PM, David Lyon <david.l...@preisshare.net> > wrote: >> On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 11:35:41 +0100, Tarek Ziadé <ziade.ta...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >>> PEP 376 is working on a default, unified, *installation* format, that >>> tries to gather the good ideas of Pip, Setuptools etc.. and propose a >>> unified format for our site-packages. This new standard will come with >>> APIs in pkgutil to be able to query installed distribution etc. This >>> work is also linked to PEP 345 work where we are modifying the >>> Metadata, and to PEP 386 that proposes a standard version comparison >>> scheme. >> >> Perphaps.. >> >> But if you put all these PEPs together, implementing all the new features >> can't come to more than 300 lines of code... >> >> Since we hardly got anywhere on them in 2009, it will be interesting to >> see how much of it gets done in 2010. >> >>> But there's no plan to include a new *distribution* format in Distutils. >> >> I wasn't suggesting that - at all. >> >> And saying that 'eggs' are a *new* python package format isn't really >> really helpful because to my understanding they've been around for >> some number of years. >> >> No, i won't raise why we have EGG_INFO directories and a whole lot >> of half working egg stuff in standard python... I'm just asking >> why it can't be more consistant? while we're on the refactoring >> topic. >> >> Be fair... >> >> I'm saying finish what is already there.. or take out the crap .. >> >> It isn't fair to suggest that I am somehow asking for some big >> change when I am simply pointing out all the junk that's in >> there that's already half built. >> >>> In any case those PEPs are not finished yet, so everyone can help at >>> distutils-SIG >> >> True - and False. >> >> But I've been on the list for some twelve months asking for work >> to help out with, and haven't been assigned a single task to do >> yet. >> >> Seriously, if you won't allocate work out to people then how can >> it get done? >> >> Whilst I personally think a lot of the stuff in those PEPs is not >> high on quality, why don't we just get them implemented anyway? >> >> I'm a fairly proficient develper, but I can't get assigned a single >> work item.. >> >> And to me, it doesn't seem any harder than just selecting 'djlyon' >> on the python tracker for some work items... >> >> Surely those PEPs all amount to 300+ lines of code. With two people >> working on it, that's only surely 150+ lines of code each... That >> shouldn't be such a big challenge for 2010.. >> >> David >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Python-Dev mailing list >> Python-Dev@python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev >> Unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/guido%40python.org >> _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
