I don't always post to python-dev, but when I do I ask for braces. On Friday, December 9, 2011 at 4:43 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> > Dear Cedric, > > I'm guessing you drank too much (perhaps you are training for New Year's > Eve), ate some bad sausages or are simply very self-complacent. > python-dev is not the place where to post long unstructured ramblings > with no practical value. Consider writing on your personal blog > instead. > > Thank you > > Antoine. > > > > On Fri, 9 Dec 2011 21:26:29 +0100 > Cedric Sodhi <man...@gmx.net (mailto:man...@gmx.net)> wrote: > > IF YOU THINK YOU MUST REPLY SOMETHING WITTY, ITERATE THAT THIS HAD BEEN > > DISCUSSED BEFORE, REPLY THAT "IT'S SIMPLY NOT GO'NNA HAPPEN", THAT "WHO > > DOESN'T LIKE IT IS FREE TO CHOOSE ANOTHER LANGUAGE" OR SOMETHING > > SIMILAR, JUST DON'T. > > > > Otherwise, read on. > > > > I know very well that this topic has been discussed before. On forums. > > Mailing lists. IRC. Blogs. From person to person, even. > > > > And I know equally well, from all those years experiencing > > argument-turned-debates on the internet, how a (minor|major) fraction of > > participants make up for their inability to lead a proper debate by > > speaking the loudest of all, so that eventually quantity triumphs over > > quality and logic. > > > > That ahead; I hope you can try not to fall in that category. Let instead > > reason prevail over sentimentalism, mislead purism, elitism, and all > > other sorts of isms which hinder advancement in the greater context. > > > > Python has surprised once already: The changes from 2 to 3 were not > > downwards compatible because the core developers realized there is more > > to a sustainable language than constantly patching it up until it comes > > apart like the roman empire. > > > > Let's keep that spirit for a second and let us discuss braces, again, > > with the clear goal of improving the language. > > > > End of disclaimer? > > > > End of disclaimer! > > > > Whitespace-Blocking (WSB) as opposed to Delimiter-Blocking (DB) has > > reasons. What are those reasons? Well, primarily, it forces the > > programmer to maintain well readable code. Then, some might argue, it is > > quicker to type. > > > > Two reasons, but of what importance are they? And are they actually > > reasons? > > > > You may guessed it from the questions themselves that I'm about to > > question that. > > > > I don't intend to connote brazen implications, so let me spell out what > > I just implied: I think anyone who thinks that exclusive WSB is a good > > alternative or even preferable to DB is actually deluding themselves for > > some personal version of one of those isms mentioned above. > > > > Let's examine these alleged advantages objectively one for one. But > > before that, just to calm troubled waters a little, allow me bring > > forward the conclusion: > > > > Absolutely no intentions to remowe WSB from Python. Although one might > > have gotten that impression from the early paragraphs, no intentions to > > break downwards compatibility, either. > > > > What Python needs is an alternative to WSB and can stay Python by still > > offering WSB to all those who happen to like it. > > > > Readable code, is it really an advantage? > > > > Two linebreaks, just for the suspense, then: > > > > Of course it is. > > > > Forcing the programmer to write readable code, is that an advantage? No > > suspense, the answer is Of course not. > > > > Python may have started off as the casual scripting language for casual > > people. People, who may not even have known programming. And perhaps it > > has made sense to force -- or shall we say motivate, since you can still > > produce perfectly obfuscated code with Python -- them to write readably. > > > > But Python has matured and so has its clientele. Python does not become > > a better language, neither for beginners nor for experienced programmers > > who also frequently use Python these days, by patronizing them and > > restricting them in their freedom. > > > > Readable code? Yes. Forcing people to write readable code by artificial > > means? No. > > > > Practice is evidence for the mischief of this policy: Does the FOSS > > community suffer from a notorious lack of proper indention or > > readability of code? Of course we don't. > > > > I'm not a native speaker, but dict.cc (http://dict.cc) tells me that what > > we call "mit > > Kanonen auf Spatzen schießen" (firing cannons at sparrows) is called > > breaking a fly on the wheel in English. > > > > I may lack the analogy for the fly on the wheel, which, if I'm not > > mistaken, used to be a device for torture in the Middle Ages, but I can > > tell you that the cannon ball which might have struck the sparrows, > > coincidently caused havoc in the hinterlands. > > > > For the wide-spread and professional language Python is today, the idea > > of forcing people to indent is misguided. These days, it may address a > > neglible minority of absolute beginners who barely started programming > > and would not listen to the simple advice of indenting properly, but on > > the other hand it hurts/annoys/deters a great community of typical > > programmers for whom DB has long become a de facto standard. > > > > For them, it's not a mere inconsistency without, for them, any apparent > > reason. It's more than the inconvenience not being able to follow ones > > long time practices, using the scripts one wrote for delimiters, the > > shortcuts that are usually offered by editor, etc. > > > > It also brings about a whole class of new problems which may be > > anticipated and prevent, yet bear a great potential for new, even > > hard-to-find bugs (just in case anyone would respond that we had > > eventually successfully redeemed the mismatched parenthesis problem - at > > what cost?!). > > > > Not just difficult to find, near to impossible would be the right word > > for anyone who has to review someone else's patch. > > > > It is widely known among the programmer's community that spaces and tabs > > are remarkably similar to eachother. So similar even, that people fight > > wars about which to use in a non-py context. It might strike one as an > > equally remarkably nonsensical idea to give them programmatic meaning - > > two DIFFERENT meanings, to make things even worse. > > > > While it becomes a practical impossibility to spot these kind of bugs > > while reviewing code -- optionally mangled through a medium which > > expands tabs to whitespace, not so much of a rarity -- it is still a > > time-consuming and tedious job to find them in a local situation. > > > > More or less easily rectified, but once you spent a while trying to > > figure something like that out, you inevitably have the urge to ask: Why? > > > > Last of all, some might argue that it's convenient to not to have type > > delimiters. Well, be my guest. I also appreciate single lined > > conditional or loops once in a while. I understand how not having to > > type delimiters if you don't want them lifts a burden. Hence I would not > > want rid Python of them. WSB may come in handy. But equally, it may not. > > > > Proposing the actual changes that would have to be made to accomodate > > both, WSB and DB is beyond the scope of this script. It is the > > CONCLUSION that the current situation is undesirable and Python, > > although not apparent at the first glance, suffers from exclusive WSB, > > which is the goal of this thread. > > > > Discussing has its etymological roots in Discourse, which connotes a > > loosely guided conversation about a topic. Therefore, I conclude with a > > > > DEBATE!!!111 > > > > kind regards, > > -- MD > > > > (not proof-read) > > > _______________________________________________ > Python-Dev mailing list > Python-Dev@python.org (mailto:Python-Dev@python.org) > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev > Unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/donald.stufft%40gmail.com > >
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