Like it or not, written communication is all we have. However, I do think we are running into some kind of limitation: the ancient concept of mailing lists (or newsgroups). I would like to continue the discussion of this limitation in the original thread.
PS. I think it's somewhat ironic that Steve posted his idea to deal with discussions run amok in the forked thread that was meant specifically t discuss the proposal for a security-sig. Ditto that Cory used this same thread to bring up his philosophy about computer security -- that topic itself belongs clearly in the proposed SIG or on python-dev (if we don't create a SIG) but not (yet) in the discussion about whether we should create a SIG. On Sat, Jun 18, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Steve Dower <steve.do...@python.org> wrote: > It's not just security discussions. The same thing happened with fspath, > tzinfo, and many others that I have erased from my own memory. > distutils-sig sees them often as well. > > The whole thing seems like a limitation of written communication. There's > no way to indicate or define whether something should be nitpicked or not, > and so everything gets line-by-line analysis whether it deserves it or not, > which is what leads to such huge and fragmented threads, regardless of > topic. > > At work, when we start seeing email or IM discussions going this way, we > schedule a meeting. Perhaps we need a formal outlet for suspending > discussion (and moderating incoming emails with a particular subject?) > until an online call can be held and outcomes presented back to the list. > Maybe we should schedule monthly online language summits and defer these > discussions/decisions to that? > > I know that change won't be popular with some people. Honestly, if you > haven't contributed more than the people who quit python-dev over these > threads, you don't get to demand status quo. We need to change something, > and I don't think more email or mute buttons (sorry Guido :) ) are the > answer. > > Top-posted from my Windows Phone > ------------------------------ > From: Brett Cannon <br...@python.org> > Sent: 6/18/2016 11:13 > To: Cory Benfield <c...@lukasa.co.uk> > Cc: Nick Coghlan <ncogh...@gmail.com>; Python Dev <python-dev@python.org> > Subject: Re: [Python-Dev] security SIG? (was: Discussion overload) > > > > On Sat, 18 Jun 2016 at 07:30 Cory Benfield <c...@lukasa.co.uk> wrote: > >> >> > On 18 Jun 2016, at 04:06, Brett Cannon <br...@python.org> wrote: >> > >> > Do we need a security SIG? E.g. would people like Christian and Cory >> like to have a separate place to talk about the ssl stuff brought up at the >> language summit? >> >> >> Honestly, I’m not sure what we would gain. >> >> Unless that SIG is empowered to take action, all it will be is a factory >> for generating arguments like this one. It will inevitably be either a >> toxic environment in itself, or a source of toxic threads on python-dev as >> the security SIG brings new threads like this one to the table. >> >> It should be noted that of the three developers that originally stepped >> forward on the security side of things here (myself, Donald, and >> Christian), only I am left subscribed to python-dev and nosy’d on the >> relevant issues. Put another way: each time we do this, several people on >> the security side burn themselves out in the thread and walk away (it’s >> possible that those on the other side of the threads do too, I just don’t >> know those people so well). It’s hard to get enthusiastic about signing >> people up for that. =) >> > > And this is the problem I'm trying to solve. As various people have > pointed out, the conversation was pretty much cordial, but it did end up > feeling like "you're not listening to me" on both sides on top of the > volume, which is what I think burned people out on this thread. > > I think Nick brought up the point that we as a group need to come up with > some guideline that we more-or-less stick with to help guide this kind of > discussion or else we are going to burn out regularly any time security > comes up; we can't keep holding security discussions like this or else > we're going to end up in a bad place when everyone burns out and stops > caring. > > _______________________________________________ > Python-Dev mailing list > Python-Dev@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev > Unsubscribe: > https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/guido%40python.org > > -- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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