+1.
I read many disagreements, and people being rude and unprofessional on
occasions, but nothing that would make me have a bad day, even when I
was the target of it.
I feel like people are really getting hyper sensitive about
communications. While I do prefer talking to calm rational people with a
friendly tone, I acknowledge this is not always the case and it's ok if
somebody go overboard from time to time.
We are not living in a perfect world, and spending a lot of effort
trying to smooth everything out seems overkill to me.
Le 18/10/2016 à 01:10, Rene Nejsum a écrit :
Dear Brett/
I have been reading the python-idea archive from time to time over the
past years and I joined the list about a month ago to promote my “crazy”
async object idea. I did fear the response to a newcomer with an
unlikely idea, but I must say the *everyone* has been extremely nice,
writing often long answer to discussions and trying to understand where
I’m coming from with this idea. And it definitely made me try to think a
little extra before sending responses …
I did also raise an eye-brow when reading some of the comments in the
thread you mentioned, they seam a little out of touch with my experience
on other threads here.
Hope some time off will do you good, my best advice to you and others is
something that have helped me, in similar situations is the old saying
“Other peoples opinion of you, are none of your business” :-) It took
me some years to get it, but now it helps me every time i get worked up
about something another person says to me or about me.
best
/Rene
On 17 Oct 2016, at 20:29, Brett Cannon <br...@python.org
<mailto:br...@python.org>> wrote:
Based on some emails I read in the " unpacking generalisations for
list comprehension", I feel like I need to address this entire list
about its general behaviour.
If you don't follow me on Twitter you may not be aware that I am
taking the entire month of October off from volunteering any personal
time on Python for my personal well-being (this reply is being done on
work time for instance). This stems from my wife pointing out that I
had been rather stressed in July and August outside of work in
relation to my Python volunteering (having your weekends ruined is
never fun). That stress stemmed primarily from two rather bad
interactions I had to contend with on the issue track in July and
August ... and this mailing list.
When I have talked to people about this mailing list it's often
referred to by others as the "wild west" of Python development
discussions (if you're not familiar with US culture, that turn of
phrase basically means "anything goes"). To me that is not a
compliment. When I created this list with Titus the goal was to
provide a safe place where people could bring up ideas for Python
where people could quickly provide basic feedback so people could know
whether there was any chance that python-dev would consider the
proposal. This was meant to be a win for proposers by not feeling like
they were wasting python-dev's time and a win for python-dev by
keeping that list focused on the development of Python and not
fielding every idea that people want to propose.
And while this list has definitely helped with the cognitive load on
python-dev, it has not always provided a safe place for people to
express ideas. I have seen people completely dismiss people's
expertise and opinion. There has been name calling and yelling at
people (which is always unnecessary). There have been threads that
have completely derailed itself and gone entirely off-topic. IOW I
would not hold this mailing list up as an example of the general
discourse that I experience elsewhere within the community.
Now I realize that we are all human beings coming from different
cultural backgrounds and lives. We all have bad days and may not take
the time to stop and think about what we are typing before sending it,
leading to emails that are worded in a way that can be hurtful to
others. It's also easy to forget that various cultures views things
differently and so that can lead to people "reading between the lines"
a lot and picking up things that were never intended. There are 1,031
people on this mailing list from around the world and it's easy to
forget that e.g. Canadian humour may not translate well to Ukrainian
culture (or something). What this means is it's okay to *nicely* say
that something bothered you, but also try to give people the benefit
of the doubt as you don't know what their day had been like before
they wrote that email (I personally don't like the "just mute the
thread" approach to dealing with bad actors when the muting is silent
as that doesn't help new people who join this mailing list and the
first email they see is someone being rude that everyone else didn't
see because they muted the thread days ago).
As for the off-topic threads, please remember there are 1,031 people
on this mailing list (this doesn't count people reading through gmane
or Google Groups). Being extremely generous and assuming every person
on this list only spends 10 seconds deciding if they care about your
email, that's still nearly 3 hours of cumulative time spent on your
email. So please be cognisant when you reply, and if you want to have
an off-topic conversation, please take it off-list.
And finally, as one of the list administrators I am in a position of
power when it comes to the rules of this list and the CoC. While I'm
one of the judges on when someone has violated the CoC, I purposefully
try not to play the role of police to avoid bias and abuse of power.
What that means is that I never personally lodge a CoC complaint
against anyone. That means that if you feel someone is being abusive
here you cannot rely on list admins noticing and doing something about
it. If you feel someone has continuously been abusive on this list and
violating the CoC then you must email the list admins about it if you
wish to see action taken (all communications are kept private among
the admins). Now I'm not asking people to email us on every small
infraction (as I said above, try to give everyone a break knowing we
all have bad days), but if you notice a pattern then you need to speak
up if you would like to see something change.
When I started my month off I thought that maybe if I only read this
mailing list once a week that the frequency would be low enough that I
could handle the stress of being both a participant and admin who is
ultimately responsible for the behaviour here, but I'm afraid that
isn't going to cut it. What I don't think people realize is that I
don't take my responsibility as admin lightly; any time anyone acts
rudely I take it personally like I somehow failed by letting the
atmosphere and discourse on this list become what it is. Because of
this I'm afraid I need to mute this mailing list for the rest of my
vacation from volunteering in the Python community after I send this
email. I personally hope people do take the time to read this email
and reflect upon how they conduct themselves on this mailing list --
and maybe on other lists as well -- so that when I attempt to come
back in November I don't have to permanent stop being a participant on
this list and simply become an admin for this list to prevent complete
burn-out for me in the Python community (and I know this last sentence
sounds dramatic, but I'm being serious; the irony of receiving the
Frank Willison award the same year I'm having to contemplate
fundamentally shifting how I engage with the community to not burn out
is not lost on me).
-Brett
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